[Från: PowerfulChoices [PowerfulChoices@gmail.com]
Skickat: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:30 AM
Till: 'Toby Joreteg'
Ämne: VB: Daniel's Messiah - Newsletter #1 - updated (effecting quality
of links only)]
Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. Powerful Choices ©
Non-Negotiable. Private between the parties.
[This is
a 5930± 02 17 2026 translation from my original
Swedish email to Toby:]
Hi Toby,
Thank
you for giving me the privilege of receiving your Newsletter re
”Daniel’s Messiah” and for your trust in so doing!
I am
thoroughly convinced that there is a tremendous value inherent in bringing up
front the Messiah of the various messages God is giving each of us from time to
time, most especially so re such messages as we as a Seventh-day Adventist
people greatly value and which are uniquely important unto each one among us.
As are
you, I also am thoroughly convinced that God has much more in store for us, to
bless us with, that is, within the passages of Scripture that serve as a
foundation for those pillars of faith that thus far we’ve found most important.
Indeed, most especially those passages! Isn’t that why it is
so very important that we, each for our selves - as
well as congregationally and as an advent people - do bring forwards, in a very
special sense, “Daniel’s Messiah?”
But then
we do have this ongoing problem with perceiving the black holes, the black
nothingnesses, within each our selves, that is, each our ignorance re so many
particulars. And naturally that same thing will apply also to ourselves as an
advent people, and not only to each of us as individuals, or isn’t that true?
It’s not always very easy to free ourselves from the erroneous concepts re real
facts and objective reality such as we may thus far in our lives invested much
feelings and effort into, frequently ever since our earliest infancy. As you
know, and as you have readily admitted to me, among such things as we may have
good reasons for shedding more light upon belongs also the traditional
Adventist understanding re 31 A.D. being the year of crucifixion, an
understanding that may differ quite significantly from the objective reality.
In consequence of that item of specific belief there may be considerable
additional baggage building upon the conjecture that 31 A.D. was the year of
that particular event. Naturally I am thinking of much of that which we as an
advent people traditionally associate with various phrases in Daniel 8 etc.. It is a joy for me to see your willingness to continue
searching for, and studying, these words of Daniel ever more deeply and for the
purpose of discovering very much more of all that which God has in store for
each one among us. I certainly do not doubt that you recognize that you and I
both are continually encumbered by various flawed interpretations re most
particularly the Book of Daniel and most especially re chapter 8 of Daniel.
In
particular I wish to thank you for your contribution towards enlightening such
a black hole within me! I am thinking especially of Caesar Tiberius’ reckoning
of time, which, as I’ve discovered, is identically the same as our Western
reckoning of time, the one we know as the Julian or Gregorian calendar. Well,
we’ve spoken of these particulars before, so you are well aware of what I am
talking about.
Perhaps
you will find additional items of value among all that which I’ve been
discovering while delving deeply into the Word of God over the last several
years, perhaps, in particular, such things as may touch upon your own studies
of the Book of Daniel? Naturally there is a lot within those passages and I do
not believe that you are likely to buy, that is, to accept, in one wide sweep,
everything that I may be able to offer you. If
you do not perceive yourself as having time for thoroughly considering and
studying each and all of my links below, and I reckon you won’t, then, at
least, I do urge you to please take a close look at that link which touches
upon the book of Daniel and those words of Daniel which in KJV are translated
“the end!” You’ll find that link within your Newsletter #1 below your words ” 3. A “time of the
end.” ”
As I am
reading your Newsletter I do find quite a few items I’d like to comment upon,
but if I were to do so in an unwise manner I would risk being misunderstood and
for our relationship to deteriorate, and that I certainly do not wish! The
thought occurred to me that I could add links to the words of yours within the
Newsletters that you are sending me from time to time, while perhaps every now
and then also adding a brief [bracketed] comment. By so doing it would be entirely up to you and
your own interest to determine how deeply you wish to delve into all of that
which I might possibly have to offer. By so doing it would also be quite
obvious to you that my words in no way are intended as directed against you or
against anything that you’ve spoken of or written about. As you will notice I
have written that which you’ll find under my links a long time before you ever
wrote your Newsletters, or isn’t that so? Thus, rather than perceiving my links
and comments as criticism, perhaps you’ll perceive them as indications of God’s
leading each of us, you and me, to focus our attention upon very much the same
objects and, in so doing, to be able to learn from, as well as to teach, one
another – and others – whatever we, you and I, are prepared for and receptive
to out of all that which God is speaking to each of us? And please do remember:
For me, the names ‘Jesus’ and ‘Christ’ are words with most important inherent
meaning, the former with a focus upon each our walk towards the Kingdom of God
- that is, the I Am’s path in the direction of each
our recognition of the truth re our own life – and the latter word with a focus
upon receiving the anointment that implies that each our thoughts, our brains,
and our heads are being thoroughly rubbed in with God’s own light. Most
especially so re your term “Daniel’s Messiah” and re that which touches upon my
discoveries re chronology related items within the book of Daniel as well as
within the remainder of God’s word…
Well,
that’s quite a few words already, so perhaps I’d better conclude here for the
time being… that is, adding only the
links and the comments within your Newsletter below, as above mentioned… Once
again though, if you do not find time for anything else, then I do wish that
you please carefully consider my Hebrew word study re the words translated ”the time of the end” etc as found in the book of Daniel! Are we as an advent
people willing to grow with the rays of light that our Lord is providing us
from time to time through one another? Or do we choose, whether each one for
himself or, congregationally, as an “Adventist Church,” to hide, as does the
Roman Catholic church, to hide our errors, our erroneous heresies, under a
covering of false light, such as that which is being represented by the light
Lucifer? Cf. also {EW 54.2} - {EW 56.1}! How do I deal with the rays of light
that God is reflecting to me by means of your studies? Well, that’s a question
for me to reflect upon, is it not?
Perhaps
you will to some little extent find joy in seeing how that I am taking time to
carefully reflect upon the words that God is allowing you to mirror in my
direction?...
God’s
peace over your family, your home and your house is what I wish for all of you
continually,
Gunnar ©
Från: tobyjoreteg@gmail.com [mailto:tobyjoreteg@gmail.com]
För Toby Joreteg
Skickat: Sunday, February 14, 2010 11:15 PM
Ämne: Daniel's Messiah
Dear friends,
I am starting a Newsletter called “Daniel’s Messiah.” I have chosen you from my e-mail address list because I believe that you have a special interest in a Bible study [Notice: Except for the links to Toby’s web site, all links and brackets within are added / 5930± 02 17 2026 by ToL©] that goes beyond the usual. You will be challenged and blessed at the same time.
If you don’t want to receive this newsletter, please let me know.
The newsletter attached shows how it is possible to see Messiah and His first coming as the core fulfillment of Daniel 8. When doing so, Daniel 8 and 9 goes hand in hand and glorifies Jesus Christ!
With my Swedish background there will be some grammatical mistakes here and there, but I hope that you will overlook them and focus on the content. If you do, I pray that blessings will fill you and inspire you to further inductive Bible study [See slide #14, which is a quote from CSW 34.3! / All bracketed comments within are added by Tree of Life ©].
For further study, see my website: www.TobyJoreteg.com
The material presented will glorify God’s Name and give Him honor and praise! There is no room for self-glorification in these newsletters! It is time to humble ourselves before our Maker…
Your friend,
Toby Joreteg M.D., Ph.D.
Loma Linda, CA
Newsletter: 1
Messiah in Daniel 8
Key Issues in Daniel 8:13 and 19
Background
For us who belong to the Seventh Day Adventist Church [Notice: Except for the links to Toby’s web site, all links and brackets within are added / 5930± 02 17 2026 by ToL©] all prophecies are very important but especially Daniel 8. We are convinced that Daniel 8 was fulfilled in 1844 [At the link, please read at least the first 10 paragraphs under the one beginning "Well, per the conventional order of Ezra and Nehemiah..."] and since our denomination was founded in the aftermath of the great disappointment, we must have a significant role to play. Our interpretation of Daniel 8 gives a good reason for our existence. It leads us to believe that we are an important stepping stone in God’s history. On the other hand, if we don’t have this support from Daniel 8, many feel that our existence is not justified.
But, the concept of looking at ourselves is certainly not the theme of the Gospels and not in the rest of the Bible either. The focus in the New Testament is on Jesus Christ and on what He has accomplished! Wouldn’t it make sense that this perspective also should be the guideline in our interpretation of Daniel 8? I pray that you will be willing to look at Daniel 8:19, 13 and 14 with Jesus Christ, the Messiah as the focus and the fulfillment of this prophecy.
The purpose is NOT to cause factions – but healing to a divided church; not to cause confusion – but Joy in the Lord. This happens when we lift up Jesus Christ and not ourselves. The significance of these articles is to glorify Jesus and to see Him as the primary fulfillment of all prophecy. This attitude gives Daniel 8 a new perspective and opens doors for new understanding. The simple key is to take the time periods in Daniel 8-12 literally.
I invite you to an exciting study with the focus on Daniel’s Messiah. Personally I give all glory, honor and praise to God who through His Spirit has given me the insight I am about to share with you as a reader.
A Sacred Feast
In Hebrew writings we often find a summary first followed by a more detailed description. It is very important to recognize this when studying the Bible. In Daniel 8 we don’t find the summary in conjunction with the vision in verses 1-14, but in the interpretation part in verse 19. The importance of this summary needs to be acknowledged, if we want to find the correct interpretation. When it is recognized, the prophecy in Daniel 8 should highlight three issues:
1. A “time of wrath”
2. An “appointed time” and
3. A “time of the end [At the link, after reading the abstract, please consider the TLT (Tree of Life © Time version) translations found at items ##83-95 re Daniel’s use of one particular Hebrew word translated “the end.”] ”
Number one does not need further explanation, as long as its fulfillment in Daniel 8 refers to an explicit event of God’s wrath. The moment the 2,300 evenings and mornings in Daniel 8 ends, God’s wrath should be manifested.
I have in a book showed that Daniel 8 refers to Christ’s first coming as the Messiah and that is what I will portray in these articles.[1] With this perspective Jesus took upon Himself God’s wrath on mankind when He died on the cross. That is a well accepted fact and does not need to be proven in this article.
The word for “appointed” in the second criterion refers to a “sacred season” or a “set feast.” “The appointed time,” would then refer to the Passover feast and, of course, we all know that Daniel’s Messiah died during that feast.
The third criterion refers to the time of the end but it is extremely important to find out how “the end” is defined in the context. The “time of the end” is an expression which is often mistakenly thought to refer to the end of this world. In Daniel 12:13 the word “end” is used twice. The first time it refers to the death of Daniel and the second time, “the end of days,” to Jesus’ second coming. But mostly the “end” in Daniel 8-12 refers to [At the link, please cf. each of items #83-95!] the time when Israel chose to end their Covenant with God. This happened when they condemned Jesus Christ and handed Him over to the Gentiles to be crucified.[2] But to prove that is outside the scope of this article.
If not all three components stated in Daniel 8:19 are fulfilled, we do not have a true interpretation of this prophecy. How many of these three criterions are met in our traditional interpretation of Daniel 8?
How Long?
Our focus here will be on the core part of Daniel 8:13-14. In verse 13 a conversation takes place. The question is “how long” will it be before the vision in Daniel 8 is fulfilled? The first thing we need to notice is that this question points to “the end” of the vision. When the 2,300 evenings and mornings have come to an end, these four questions will have found their answers. The obvious reasons for these four questions are to define the vision, to help us understand it correctly and to point to a very important event at the end of the 2,300 evenings and mornings. Daniel 8:13:
Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?" (NKJV)
1) The Daily Sacrifices
The first question to define the end point for the 2,300 evenings and mornings concerns the “daily sacrifice.” The good news is that we do not need to speculate what the Bible has in mind. We already know from Daniel 8:11 and 12 what this question refers to. There it says that the daily sacrifice “was taken away.” So that is the issue Daniel 8:13 refers to! In that case the time period, which we soon will study, ended when the daily sacrifice was taken away.
We have two possible options. One is when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D and the other option is when the True Lamb, Jesus Christ, was slain on the cross in 31 A.D. Daniel 9:27 tells us plainly that in the middle of the last week, i.e. in 31 A.D., “he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.” When the True lamb had been slain, no more sacrifices were needed. Thus, the first statement regarding the prophetic time period in Daniel 8 was fulfilled at the cross.
2) The Rebellion that Causes Desolation
The second defining statement is the “transgression of desolation,” according to the NKJV, or “rebellion that causes desolation” as the NIV writes it. Both alternatives are appropriate. The word for “transgression” could also be translated to “rebellion.” It was the persistent transgression of Daniel’s people that finally led to “desolation.” The house of Judah was given 490 years to “finish transgression,” “put an end to sin” and “atone for wickedness” – but it did not happen. The desolation was a fact!
If we do a word study on “desolation,” we will find two possible interpretations. The most common one means that an area has no or very few inhabitants. The second option suggests “separation,” being “forsaken,” “not married” or “divorced [Consider the wholesale divorce action of Ezra!].” [3] The second option is the one that fits best to Daniel 8. When Jesus died on the cross, the desolation was a fact. The Old Covenant people was no longer married to God when Christ died.[4] Thus, the second question regarding this prophetic time period in Daniel 8 finds its answer at the cross.
3) The Sanctuary Trampled Underfoot
The third defining statement to explain the time period in Daniel 8:14 refers to the sanctuary [Consider the two-in-oneness, di-vinity/duo-unity, image of God sanctuary of Genesis 1:27!] that will be trampled underfoot. This is probably meant in a symbolical way since we don’t believe in giants that literally would “trample” the sanctuary. In John 2:19-21 Jesus plainly tells us that He is the Sanctuary. Similar statements can be found in Revelation 21:22 and Isaiah 8:13-14. If we accept that Jesus is the Sanctuary, He was “trampled” on when He died on the cross. This interpretation would also fit the expression, “His sanctuary was cast down,” found in Daniel 8:11. Thus, the third defining statement regarding this prophetic time period in Daniel 8 finds its fulfillment at the cross. [Yes indeed, and don’t forget the two-in-oneness of God where Christ is one and God’s People are the other one! Per Romans 7:4 and per Revelation 21:2, 9! To what extent are we using each our God given powers in support of a State whose prime focus is the destruction of the family unit? That is, the wholesale divorce action of our own days?]
4) The Host Trampled Underfoot
The fourth question concerns a “host” that also was trampled underfoot. If you put the vision in verses 1-14 and the interpretation in verses 15-27 side-by-side in two columns, you will find that the counterpart to “the “host of the saints” in verse 12 is “holy people” in verse 24 [Consider “the mightyH6099 and the holyH6918 people.H5971” while focusing upon the English word “husband” or Ellen White’s term “house-band” and Strong’s H6099 and its root H6105! To what extent are we using each our God given powers in support of a State whose prime focus is the destruction of the family unit by means of questioning and making suspicious the authority of the father as the head of the household?] The holy people in the Old Covenant were the Israelites and we have already seen how the “divorce” was a fact when Messiah died on the cross. In this sense Israel, as God’s holy people, were trampled underfoot. Thus, the fourth question regarding this prophetic time period in Daniel 8 also finds its answer at the cross.
It is interesting to see that questions one and three in Daniel 8:13 pertain to Messiah and questions two and four to the Old Covenant people. [Yes, and think of those numbers in terms of each of the two ones in the two-in-oneness, di-unit-y of the Family of God, one and three representing the house-band and two and four representing the People of God as the bride of Christ. Consider also Jesus’ words per Matthew 22:37-39 in terms of the first Five Commandments representing each our relationship with God and the second Five Commandments representing each our relationship with the People of God!]
Summary
The four criterions that define the question “how long” all refer to the same crucial point in history [- and its extension even into our own lives and society as, yes, even as formalized State registered and State controlled SDA Church… Are we learning from history? Or, are we repeating history?] It is easy from the context to realize that all were fulfilled [“Fulfilled?” Or, a symbolic action “perfected” as a teaching tool from which each one of us should learn?] as Christ died on the cross. Furthermore, this was the time when Israel’s leaders chose to “end” their Covenant with God. [As in every ‘choice’ being the beginning of a chain action of consequences! Consider the 1st Angel’s Message in terms of “the hour of His judgment is come…” being each our Power of Choice as delegated to each of us per Genesis 2:16-17, that is, as in “the everlasting gospel” of Rev 14:6!] It happened at the Passover feast when Christ took God’s wrath on Himself. To summarize it we will read Daniel 8:13 paraphrased:
“How long
will it take for the vision to be fulfilled, the vision about the daily
sacrifice (that will be taken away), the rebellion that causes desolation
(separation from God), the trampling of the Sanctuary (Jesus Christ) and the
trampling of the host (the Old Covenant people).” [Indeed, ‘How long will it take for this vision, this
realization of the obvious, to be fulfilled…’ in terms of being recognized and
applied in each our life and in each our society?]
This Christ centered interpretation builds a foundation for a new understanding of the prophecy in Daniel 8. Therefore, we need to have another approach when studying the 2,300 evenings and mornings! What at first might look as a deviation from the truth will actually lead us to the real Truth, Jesus Christ. This is the reason for our existence as a denomination! We are here to GLORIFY GOD and not ourselves! In the next two articles we will analyze it further.
Toby Joreteg MD, PhD.
[1] Daniel and the Visions about the End Time. www.TobyJoreteg.com
Daniel’s Messiah: DVD
[2] Matthew 20:18-19, John 19:15, Romans 7:2.
[3] 2 Samuel 13:20, Isaiah 62:4-5, Isaiah 54:1, Matthew 23:37.
[4] John 19:15, Romans 7:2.
Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. PowerfulChoices ©