Daniel's Messiah Newsletter #6 with links to, and comments of, Tree of Life added...

[Från: PowerfulChoices [PowerfulChoices@gmail.com]

Skickat: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:48 PM

Till: 'Toby Joreteg'

Ämne: SV: Daniel's Messiah, Newsletter #6]

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Adamah Republic ©

5930± 02 02 2026

Written with a beginning on the Seventh Day Sabbath

the ~~sixteenth…~~ fifteenth day [corrected Zif 17 / ToL©] of the fifty being reckoned towards the Day of Sabbaths (!) aka. Pentecost

Zif 2 in the 5930^th year, more or less, following the beginning recorded in Genesis 1

and in the 2026^th year following the beginning recorded in Luke 1:26-33

[Saturday, the 6^th day of the week, April 17 in the 2010^th year of Caesar Tiberius.]

Dear Brother Toby, my old friend,

Sabbath is here with us again! What joy! What blessings! And what a joy to be allowed to study these Bible issues re the book of Daniel with you! Thanks for being you and doing what you do!

As before I’ll share my comments with you within the text of your Newsletter, hoping that you’ll find at least something there of value for you.

After first reading your Newsletter I thought this time will be very few and brief comments on my part, but alas… that was not to be.

Your friend and Brother in Daniel’s Messiah,

Gunnar ©

Från: tobyjoreteg@gmail.com [mailto:tobyjoreteg@gmail.com] För Toby Joreteg
Skickat: Friday, April 16, 2010 5:14 AM
Ämne: Daniel's Messiah, Newsletter #6

Dear Friends,

Here comes the next newsletter. As with the previous newsletter you can either read it below, download the attachment or go to my website: www.TobyJoreteg.com, click on "Articles" and then on the newsletter you want to read. Since the attachment and the articles on my website are on PDF you can print them as well.

I pray that the Word of God will continue to attract and inspire you.

Newsletter #6

Catholic Paranoia

Future Persecuting Power

Background

The SDA Community has always viewed the Pope and the Catholic Church with great interest – and fear.

[- Toby, don’t forget the difference between fear as something that dominates and controls a person’s thoughts and actions on the one hand, and on the other hand such warnings and advise as are based upon a sound and true foundation and which has the potential of guiding some people safely past lurking dangers. A choice such as ignores relevant warnings and advise may very well be a choice based upon unsound fear. Furthermore, the results of such ignorance are not unlikely to result in consequences accordingly. If enough people begin to wake up to the reality of a lurking danger such that warnings of God are heeded, the result may be that the beast will die by starvation, or isn’t that so?

[I believe this applies in this time and age as well. Indeed, I perceive good reasons for believing that the warnings and teachings brought forth by means of the advent movement, and especially by means of the teachings brought to us via Ellen Gould White, may well be one powerful tool in the hands of God for limiting the destructive powers of the Roman Catholic Church and for fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel that you are focusing upon within this very Newsletter #6. For us to do nothing at all while passively relying upon the fulfillment of this prophecy in terms such as you are proposing within this Newsletter #6 may not necessarily constitute God’s purpose and intention for this Daniel 7 prophecy. Indeed, so doing may in effect be tantamount, and comparable, to ignoring relevant warnings and advice. Or don’t you agree with this? Notice: Except for the links to Toby’s web site, all links and brackets within are added / 5930± 02 17 2026 by ToL©]

It seems that for any move or any statement the Catholic Church makes, there is always someone on his/her toes ready to report it to the rest of the SDA community. Nothing seems too small or insignificant to be talked about.

[- Toby, re your words “Nothing seems too small or insignificant…,” no doubt you do recognize the meaning inherent also in the words “the serpent was more subtil than any…” (emphasis added?) For such as are not willing to heed God’s warning messages it may be tempting to underrate the importance of apparently “small or insignificant…” errors. I have no doubt but that you perceive the reality of that, or don’t you? It’s obvious that before someone has delved into a deeper insight into how things work, such a one is not likely to perceive the not so subtle results of apparently “small or insignificant…” facts of life, or isn’t that so? As an example, please consider the exactness and precision necessary within any clock or watch worth its name! That would apply also to ancient chronology and our understanding of such time keeping, would it not? Consider also the results of king Jeroboam’s actions in changing the calendar as documented in 1 Kings 12:26-33. Without those apparently subtle changes of the calendar initiated by the jealousies and fears of Jeroboam, wouldn’t we be less likely to suffer the disorientation relative to God’s time line that we are currently experiencing on a planetary scale?]

The process of spreading this information has sped up considerably with the internet and e-mail.

It is a historical fact that the Catholic Church under the Papacy severely and wrongfully treated any opponents. That occurred in Europe during the so-called Dark Ages. The United States of America came into existence because of religious persecution in the “old world.” There is no question in my mind that the Papacy is the fulfillment of Daniel 7. In this newsletter we will look at some Biblical facts that will challenge our attitude toward the Catholic Church. Do we really need to fear a future, severe, and systematic persecution by the Catholic Church?

[- No, so long as we keep in mind the lessons God is teaching us through history and past experiences, and so long as our day to day choices and actions are in harmony with God’s guidance, there is no reason for fear. No, not at all!

[However, to the extent that one chooses to remain ignorant of powerful forces in one’s midst one is indeed very likely to do so based upon little more that one’s very own fears and one’s very own paranoia. Compare the reality corresponding to the term “fear of the unknown!” And isn’t the Catholic Church under the Papacy even now an exceedingly powerful religious and political force standing forever ready to take whatever control granted it by such as volunteers into their jurisdiction? For instance, by such personas as are being created under it and which we may recognize as various memberships and citizenships of church and State hierarchies? Cf. Revelation 12 – Not only in terms of the child Yeshua the Messiah, but also in terms of any one among God’s Sons and Daughters, that is, each and everyone among men being born as a living breathing being of flesh and blood!]

Bible Support #1

Daniel 7:25 says that the Little Horn will speak pompous words, it will be boastful towards God and intend to change times and laws. The Catholic Church has made claims through the years actually taking responsibility for changing “set times and laws” even though it was Emperor Constantine of Rome who in 321 A.D. was the first one to legislate Sunday as a day of rest. All statements in Daniel 7:25 fit to the Catholic Church:

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (NIV)

The focus of our study here, however, is the last sentence of this verse. Due to judgment in heavenly courts, the saints were “handed over” to this persecuting power for a certain time. Since we are dealing with a judgment and a time span we should use the Year-Day Principle. (Please see Numbers 14:34.) A time, times and half a time is 3½ years or 1260 days which prophetically equals 1260 years. Most scholars start counting from A.D. 538 and end with 1798 when the Pope was taken captive by Napoleon and brought to France.

[- Yes, this is true. And, if interested, at this link of mine you may pursue some of my findings after carefully considering and studying into the detailed events pertaining to those particular years...]

The starting point was questioned by Samuele Bacchiocchi, who wrote his dissertation at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome in 1974 where he had access to historical documents. He could not find anything that supported the year 538 A.D in Roman Catholic history. But the good news is that we do not need to have this fit with earthly historical events. The time for the saints to be “handed over” was a heavenly decision! No earthly historical event was needed!

[- It’s only all too easy to satisfy ourselves with the non-findings of someone in whom we put our trust, isn’t it?]

It is true that the power of the Catholic Church was reduced for some time, after the Pope was taken captive in 1798. However, during the last part of the twentieth century the Papacy has regained strength and power and Protestants are fearful that the Catholic Church will come back as a persecuting power.

Let us again look at the last part of Daniel 7:25. It states very clearly that systematic persecution would be happening during this time and historically we know it did. But there is nothing in the text that indicates that the saints would be “handed over” again! No, this was the time, A.D. 538–1798, and that was it! Consequently, this text does not give support for any further systematic persecution by this power!

[- Isn’t it wonderful and reassuring to recognize the power inherent in God’s warnings?!!! So long as we recognize who we are and at what time and place we are living right now, we may each take to heart the fact that we may each choose to be one with the stone hurled against the Stat(u)e of Daniel Chapter 2 and that there is no good reason for remaining a person identifying himself or herself as a subject of that State?!!! Please consider this reality also in terms events such as we associate with, for instance, the terms 9/11 and WTC. Cf. also the deeper realities of the Three Angel’s Messages as portrayed at this link of mine!]

Bible Support #2

In Inductive Bible study it is important to find agreement between statements in a certain passage. If a passage is not in harmony or worse; if the different verses in the passage even contradict each other, there is a problem with the translation or interpretation. God is NOT the author of confusion or contradictions! Daniel 7:25 has a clear message and therefore verse 26 must tell the same story.

The common understanding of Daniel 7:26 is that when the 1260 years had come to an end, the heavenly court would sit and make a judgment. According to this interpretation, the court’s decision was to take the power away from the Papacy, which happened in 1798.

[- There is a very real danger in satisfying oneself with an event such as happened in 1798 being the one and only fulfillment of that prophecy! Yes, indeed, that was a very important beginning of a series of events beginning at that time. Who is being part of that “heavenly court [that] would sit and make a judgment…?” To what extent are you and I and anyone among God’s sons and daughters being a part of that “heavenly court?” That is, to what extent are we, you and I, taking the First Angel’s Message to heart as a message from God to me and you personally? Or isn’t that First Angel’s Message an “everlasting” message “unto [each one among] them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people?” And isn’t that “hour of his judgment” forever given in the present tense?!!!

[Thus isn’t it true that the Advent movement may be perceived as a most important part of the events that began in 1798?!!! But notice! These events are still in the process of being fulfilled. Even in terms of Daniel 2:35, 44, most particularly in terms of “the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth!!!”]

The rest of the verse indicates a final judgment of the Papacy that eventually will consume and destroy it forever. The destruction of this power is believed to be an event that will happen sometime in the future.

[- Now Toby, is it “an event that will happen…” or is it indeed an event that is happening even now as we speak? That is to say: Are we, you and I, sitting passively waiting for someone else in an indefinite future to do for us such things as God is asking each of us to do even now? Even in terms of taking to heart each of the Three Angel’s Messages as messages pertinent to each of us in each our daily lives here and now? Or are we to remain members and citizens among the blind crowd who, at the end of the thousand years, is perceiving, at a distance, the reality of the Kingdom of God, while not being able or willing to accept that reality as a reality that was ab initio and is forever – that is, until too late, and when the present time is turning into a past time event - being offered even them? Cf. Rev 20! Consider also Rev 1:7 in terms of eyes that see but which do not recognize, understand, heed, or correctly value that which they are seeing! Consider the value inherent in the first word of the Fourth Commandment: “Remember…” and the importance of always considering and dwelling upon the words, principles, and yes, even warnings, of God! How else can these otherwise ever become more fully understood?]

Let’s read as it is written in Daniel 7:26:

“But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever.” (NKJV)

But if you look at the text more carefully, you will find something interesting. The quote above is from the New King James Version. At times the translators add words “for clarity.” They indicate which words they have added by putting them in italics. NKJV does that, but not all versions do.

An Interlinear Bible confirms that the word “it” in the last phrase is added in the English translation and consequently does not exist in the original text. The translators add words to make a sentence clear and complete in the English language, but we have the right and duty to see if they did a “good job” or not. With the word “it” in place the last part of the verse indicates that this persecuting power will be judged, consumed and destroyed forever – and that all this will occur sometime in the future. Let’s now read the same verse again, Daniel 7:26, without the added word “it:”

“But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy forever.” (NKJV, with my modification)

Now the interpretation is completely different! It is not the Papacy that will be consumed and destroyed but rather its “dominion to consume and destroy” that forever will be taken away. What did this persecuting power consume and destroy? Yes, the saints! That is the persecution we read about in Daniel 7:25, and also in verses 21 and 22. The “dominion to consume and destroy” saints will never again be accepted by the heavenly court!

[- Yes, indeed, if and when you or I recognize with seeing eyes, while having our heads – the Place of the Skull (cf. Matt 27:33, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33, John 19:17) - continually rubbed in with the enlightening power, we do not ever again accept such dominion, do we? Only so long as we willingly remain blind are we likely to tacitly consent to such actions against us and against our very own families, are we not? Cf. also Hosea 4:6!]

Do you see that? After 1798 God will not allow this power to systematically persecute saints, regardless of how strong or important the Catholic Church becomes. The court made the decision to take away “his dominion to consume and destroy” – forever.

[Thus, in effect, by each our own daily choices we do determine whether or not we are indeed among the “saints” or whether we remain among that fruit that is being “cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” Cf. Rev 14:18-20! By each our own choices we do attain characteristics such as places us either among the “saints” or among the “wicked,” or don’t we? Thus, another important aspect of the numbers 600, 60, and 6 as portrayed in Rev 13:18. Please do notice Strong’s G5516 and how it helps in understanding more fully the meaning behind those numbers!]

It is a fact guaranteed by God. The promise is right here in Daniel 7:26! Consequently, I believe the word “it,” does not belong in verse 26 because it totally changes the understanding of the verse. Without the word “it” there is full harmony between Daniel 7:25 and 26. The persecution took place for a certain time and ended in 1798. Never again will this power regain the ability to systematically persecute believers. God is the author of these two verses and He is a Promise Keeper!

[Yes, Toby, that is for sure! Yet, there is the reality of those five virgins that did not have enough oil for their lamps… And there is the reality of those being portrayed in Matt 25:41-46, and… of those being portrayed in Matt 7:20-24! And aren’t those of that last passage truly being described in terms such as we are commonly associating with the term “believers?” Aren’t those categories of men, yes, even of “believers,” still being subject to such persecuting powers of the evil forces remaining?!!! Regardless of how such ones may each perceive themselves in terms of being believers, yes, even while professing a, no doubt honest, belief in Jesus as the Christ! Honest, yes, yet a belief that is only all too superficial and altogether too much without substance to make a real and noticeable difference in each their own way of living their lives. Too much, perhaps, in terms of “expediency?”]

More Biblical Support

It is outside the scope of this newsletter to study Revelation 13 and 17 but I have dealt with these chapters as well as the study of the Seven Seals in my book on Revelation. The interpretation of these two chapters is in full harmony with the above. My book “The Second Coming In a New Perspective” quotes every single text in the Bible that deals with The Second Coming. In it you will find more Biblical support for the interpretation of Daniel 7:25-26 given here.

Spiritual Reason

There is another important reason why we should not view the Catholic Church as a persecuting power.

[- There’s a great difference between “a persecuting power…” and a potential persecuting power, isn’t there?! If I can effectively get out from under their area of responsibility and trusteeship such that they’ll respect me and leave me and mine alone, to me they will not be “a persecuting power.” I’ve been doing that to the best of my ability over at least 25 years by now and it is being ever more successful the more I’m able to accept of all that God is willing to teach me. To the extent that I still remain within their jurisdiction, trusteeship, and responsibility, the more power I am still allowing them to retain over me whether I am aware of it or not, and the more their “persecuting power” over me will remain. Yet, in the end, I am the one responsible for allowing them to have that power over me to persecute me…]

This comes close to us because it deals with our attitude and therefore has spiritual and eternal consequences. Listen to a word of caution from E.G. White:

“But in regard to this line of work I am instructed to say to our people: Be guarded. In bearing the message make no personal thrusts at other churches, not even the Roman Catholic Church. In the different denominations angels of God see many who can be reached only by the greatest caution. Therefore let us be careful of our words. Let not our ministers follow their own impulses in denouncing and exposing the mysteries of iniquity. Upon these themes often silence is eloquence.” {PUR, October 23, 1902 par. 2}

A paranoid attitude towards Catholics and the Catholic Church does not induce love and a longing to share the gospel truth with them.

[- Indeed, dealing correctly and effectively with these issues requires the wisdom and direct guidance of the Holy Spirit of God, does it not?!]

I would rather say the opposite happens. It is of utmost importance that we interpret the passages that deal with this church correctly. There is also a danger, a temptation, to feel spiritually superior toward members of other churches including Catholic Church. Here is a fitting and very important statement by E.G. White:

“There are many among the Catholics who live up to the light they have far better than many who claim to believe present truth, and God will just as surely test and prove them as He has tested and proved us. And just according to their willingness to stand the testing, of whatever character it may be, will be their accountability before God. From that which God has shown me, a great number will be saved from among the Catholics. There has been but little done for them except to make them appear in the worst light.” {2SAT 40.4}

Wow! Those are harsh words. Ellen White actually says that many Catholics are better off than we within the Adventist Church are, since they better live up to the light they have. Let us humble ourselves and pray that the God of Mercy will forgive us our sin, our wrongful and unloving attitude towards the believers in the Catholic Church, including the Pope! We have truly made “them appear in the worst light.” Let us also pray that as many as possible in the Catholic and in the Adventist church will be found faithful.

Conclusion

There is no indication in Daniel 7:25-26 for a future systematic persecution by the Catholic Church. Its dominion to consume and destroy saints was forever taken away. God stands by His Word!

[Yes, indeed Toby, this is true. But let’s not fool ourselves such that we may in the end be found among the five foolish virgins – who were indeed also eagerly awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom…! If the lessons we choose to learn from that prophecy of Daniel has the effect of lulling us to sleep under a false sense of security at a time when God is clearly calling us to arise and come out of Babylon and out of the State and Stat(u)e that we are continually choosing to identify ourselves with, we may indeed be volunteering for whatever systematic “persecution” or undesired control being excercised by the Catholic Church that is presently going on under the auspices of various States, organizations, or other hierarchies of men!

[It seems to me that those 400 plus concentration camps that reportedly have been built in the US recently and which reportedly are fully functional, yet thus far empty, are being prepared for a purpose and not for naught. Likewise with all those executive laws that are being signed into effect by the US presidents over the years but which are laying dormant for the time being. It is a fact that beginning in 1913 laws have been signed and put into effect defining the people upon the American continent as the enemy. I am uncertain as to the exact definition of that enemy, but it makes some sense for the powers that be behind the curtains to perceive as the enemy all those that identify themselves as subjects of the US, that is, of District of Delaware, while yet residing outside of their own ten mile square home land and outside of the additional five or six territories of the US, that is, to be thus identified relative to the lawful owners and Citizens of God’s Country and of the 50 republics (cf. this little 75 page book that I wrote some years ago while in my own pursuit of a more valid understanding of these initially confusing issues re What States?: pdf doc.) What if a decree is made for those 300 million people to cease their unfriendly occupation of foreign territory? Where are they to go? Can they all go back home to Washington D.C. and to the tiny US West-Indian territories that is their lawful home country? Is this the problem for which a final solution is being sought by said concentration camps? In that setting, doesn’t it make quite a bit of sense to perceive some of those most traumatic events of the last few decades as escalating signs of warning of what is yet to come? I am thinking of Jim Jones and French Guiana, of WACO Texas, of the Federal Building bombing in Oklahoma City, and of the 9/11 WTC events…

[And from a biblical perspective: Is God calling His people out of Babylon for naught? What about Revelation 18:4? What about the Three Angel’s Messages and the Mark of the Beast vs. those that are being referenced by Ezekiel 9:4?

[Who is being “paranoid?” Who are the ones allowing themselves to be ruled by fear under the hierarchies of men? Who are the ones being led under a false sense of security under the banner of Roman powers and under the mysterious lure of the Roman Catholic Church and her Evangelical Ecumenical daughters as so well portrayed in Revelation 17:5?

[Who are the ones acting in accord with Isaiah 60 while daring to arise and to stand up boldly for the truth as it really is while wisely and conscientiously proclaiming God’s messages of warning as each of them is able and willing to learn under the guidance of none but the Holy Spirit of the Creator God Himself? Who are the ones daring to stand up straight while walking in the footsteps of Yeshua the Messiah, Daniel’s Messiah? Who are the ones being marked as per Ezekiel 9:4, and who are the people being referenced in Ezekiel 9:5 that are being harvested as described also in Revelation 14:17-20 and as further defined in 14:8?

[Is there a common and prevalent confusion as to who is “paranoid” vs. who is not? That is, such that the truly daring ones on God’s side are being mislabeled “paranoid” by those who are themselves truly paranoid???

[Yes, I agree with you Toby, today there is an awakening such as constitutes a true continuation of the Advent movement that began about 1798, and which is resulting in that which you are describing in this Newsletter. But, and this is a really important question for each of us to take to heart, Who am I identifying myself as being when asked for identification, and when asked to show my papers of identification, that is, by people representing the hierarchies of men? It is not, who do I think I am, or who do I proclaim I am while showing proof of identity quite contrary to my very own words and thoughts. Do I dare to stand up and be different? Do I dare to stand up and be one among God’s Peculiar People? Do I dare to stand up and be counted as Elijah the prophet did while seeing none other doing so? Do I dare to be one with myself and without contradicting myself before another power?

[Do I dare to boldly stand up in such a manner that I am allowing God to truly protect me from the persecuting powers of the Roman and Roman Catholic Church hierarchies, or am I volunteering and giving my tacit consent to be among those who are being led by their very own fear to their very own destruction within the self destructive and self eliminating circle of evil constituted by the system which we know of as the State and as the United States… “United…” as in bundles to be burned? Cf. Matthew 13:30!]

Toby Joreteg MD, PhD