[Från:           PowerfulChoices [PowerfulChoices@gmail.com]

Skickat:        Friday, April 09, 2010 8:17 AM

Till:               'Toby Joreteg'

Ämne:         SV: Newsletter 5: Daniel's Messiah - And...  A Question re Norman's library...]

 

Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. Powerful Choices ©

Non-Negotiable. Private between the parties.

 

 

Adamah Republic ©

 

5930± 01 22 2026

Written with a beginning on the Fifth Day of the week

and on the sixth day of the fifty being reckoned towards the Day of Sabbaths aka. Pentecost

Aviv 22 in the 5930th year, more or less, following the beginning recorded in Genesis 1

and in the 2026th year following the beginning recorded in Luke 1:26-33

 

 

[Thursday, the 4th day of the week, April 8 in the 2010th year of Caesar Tiberius.]

 

 

 

Thanks Toby for your continued Newsletters,

 

It’s a joy to see someone studying the Holy Scriptures as you do and taking those most important and valuable messages to heart! You’ll find a few inserted comments of mine as you have found them before…

 

Here’s an apparently unrelated question for you! Perhaps I’ve asked you before, I am not sure?: From time to time I am wondering what happened to all of Norman’s library. I know he was very fond of Immanuel Velikovsky. Indeed, as you may know, Norman was the one who introduced me to the works of Velikovsky, so I feel greatly indebted to Norman for this gift of insight that he thus communicated to me! I know that Norman had, not only Velikovsky’s books, but also some very valuable and hard to find publications, that is, a magazine by the name Pensee… where issues related to Velikovsky’s books are being discussed. Now, I certainly do hope that Norman’s valuable library has not been thrown away, but that those valuable publications are all being cared for by someone who is continually finding value in them??? If your family need a home for those books and publications, well, I am certainly very willing to keep them and to keep on using them and studying them as a part of the pursuit that God is laying before me from time to time…

 

 

May the peace of the Ancient of Days rest over each our families and homes continually,

 

Your old time friend, and your Brother in Daniel’s Messiah,

 

Gunnar©

 

 

 

Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. PowerfulChoices ©

 

 

Från: tobyjoreteg@gmail.com [mailto:tobyjoreteg@gmail.com] För Toby Joreteg
Skickat: Thursday, April 08, 2010 2:30 AM
Ämne: Newsletter 5: Daniel's Messiah

 

Dear friends,

Now it is time for the next newsletter. This time we will compare the little horn in Daniel 7 with the horn in Daniel 8.

If you cannot read the article below, please download the attachment or go to my website: www.TobyJoreteg.com and click on "Articles" and then click on Newsletter 5. I wish you a blessed time!

Toby Joreteg MD, PhD
www.TobyJoreteg.com

The Little Horn in Daniel 8

 

or

 

The Horn that Grew Exceedingly Great!

 

Background

When Daniel got the vision, recorded in Daniel 8, he was working for King Belshazzar of the Babylonian Kingdom. The introductory comments to the vision are given in the first two verses. Verses 3-4 describe the world power to come after Babylon. This next power is symbolized by a “ram with two horns” and in Daniel 8:20 we are told that the two horns are “the kings of Media and Persia.”

 

Then in verses 5-7 we find the third world power described. It is portrayed as a “goat with a prominent horn between his eyes.” The Bible reader is not left in darkness regarding which power this is. Daniel 8:21 simply explains that “the shaggy goat is the king of Greece” and that the “large horn between his eyes is the first king.” We know that this king refers to Alexander the Great.

 

God gave me the idea to put the “Vision” and “Interpretation” side-by-side to be able to read the text “synoptically.” I found that to be very rewarding. It makes the understanding of the Book of Daniel easier. These first few verses of Daniel 8 fragmentally describe history as the story quickly moves from one world power to the next. (To see the vision and the interpretation side-by-side please go to my website: www.TobyJoreteg.com, click on “Articles” and then on “Daniel 8: Vision – Interpretation side-by-side.”)

 

Out of One of Them

At the death of Alexander the Great his kingdom was divided between four of his generals, described as “four prominent horns,” Daniel 8:8. These four kingdoms did not have the same power as Greece, (v.22) but they encompassed the same geographical territory. A couple of non-specific phrases describe the next power emerging. Verse 9 begins “out of one of them.” The interpretation says “in the latter part of their reign.” (v.23). Let us first look at Daniel 8:8-9:

 

The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. (NIV)

 

Other possible translations for the phrase “out of one of them” are: “Out of these” or “out of every one of them.” With this I conclude that it probably is not important to know which of the four horns that eventually became the next world power. Rather, out of ALL their territories came “another horn.”

 

Latter Part of Their Reign

Verse 23 gives more information about this next power, not so much about its origin but rather the timing, Daniel 8:22-23:

 

The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. (NIV)

 

The first criterion is found in the phrase “in the latter part of their reign.” Thus, these four kingdoms need to come to an end before the next power emerges and will encompass their territory. [Well, strictly spoken, there is a distinct difference between “in the latter part…” and your words “come to an end before…,” isn’t there? And when we study and learn from the Word of God we need to read it most carefully lest we deceive ourselves, or isn’t that true?! Notice: Except for the links to Toby’s web site, all links and brackets within are added / 5930± 02 17 2026 by ToL©]

 

Rebels Becoming Wicked

The second criterion has to do with “rebels” that at some point would become “completely wicked.” It would take too long to do a complete study of the word “rebels” at this time. Let’s just conclude that some translators use the word “rebellion” and others “transgression” for the same Hebrew word. For example in Daniel 9:24, the Jewish nation is given 490 years to “finish rebellion” (or transgression). [You may wish to consider the choice of redeemer, “savior,” protector, power, and god that each among the Jewish nation were choosing for themselves continually, beginning even with Cyrus… and continuing with Herod the Great (exactly 490 years later!) as a representative and king under the Emperor of Rome, and later (490 years exactly after God’s redemption of His people through Mordecai and Esther) by their words to Pilate “We have no king but Caesar…” (John 19:15.) That is, a conscious choice of reliance upon men, that is, a choice by each one among the people within the Israeli nation, in contradistinction to a total reliance upon God our Creator as our sole and sufficient insurance, protector, redeemer, and keeper. Cf. this link! To what extent are we, each one among us, choosing as they did???] We are talking about the Old Covenant People. In Daniel 8:12 we find a similar quotation:

 

“Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.”

 

The saints here also refer to God’s Covenant People. Furthermore, the counterpart to “the host of the saints” in this verse is “holy people” in the interpretation (v.24). God set apart the Israelites as His Covenant People, a holy people, during the Old Testament time.

 

“Rebellion,” is the overwhelming theme in many of the prophetic books. Because of continued rebellion they were “given over.” [To what extent are we, each one among us, due for the same thing? That is, to what extent are each among us due to experience the consequences of our prior choices, prior choices that we’ve not yet repented of? – Looking at the last word, “repent,” it strikes me that that word has the same stem as does the word “Pentecost…”] Verse 12 in the quote above also gives us the timing for when this happened. We have already studied and concluded that the “daily sacrifice” was taken away at the cross. [I am currently considering the possibility that that event took place exactly (?) within the 2,300th year after Noah’s sacrifice upon the altar he built after the flood????? – I’ve been working on pursuing this little item ever since your last Newsletter… It looks interesting… Genesis 8:20 is the first instance of the word ‘altar’ in the bible!] That was the time when transgression was finished and complete. The “rebels” who had become completely wicked must refer to God’s Covenant people. They demanded that Christ be crucified and boldly announced that “we have no king but Caesar,” John 19:15. With this statement the leaders of the nation rejected Christ and also the Father. It does sound completely wicked, doesn’t it?  

 

At this time the third criterion, according to verse 23, would be fulfilled. It says that a “stern-faced king, a master of intrigue” would arise. We will come back to this king in another newsletter. We are building a puzzle putting one piece at a time together to finally give the whole picture.

 

Comparing the Little Horns in Daniel 7 and 8

Chronology: The “Little Horn” in Daniel 7, I believe, is the Papacy. To prove that would be too long of a study for this newsletter. It is, however, extremely important to notice when the “little horn” in Daniel 7 comes to power. Please note the chronological order in Daniel 7:

 

1) The lion as Babylon, Daniel 7:4.

2) The bear as Medo-Persia, Daniel 7:5.

3) The leopard as Greece, Daniel 7:6.

4) The leopard had four wings and four heads; the four generals, Daniel 7:6.

5) The fourth beast as the Roman Empire, Daniel 7:7.

6) The ten horns as the European States, Daniel 7:7.

7) The little horn came up after the ten horns and was among the ten, Daniel 7:8.

 

Let’s now look at the chronological order in Daniel 8:

 

1) Daniel lived during the time of Babylon, Daniel 8:1.

2) The ram symbolizes Medo-Persia, Daniel 8:20.

            3) The goat refers to Greece, Daniel 8:21.

            4) The four horns after Alexander the Great, Daniel 8:22.

            5) The little horn that grew exceedingly great, Daniel 8:9

 

Interesting! Do you see that “the little horn” in Daniel 7 comes after the Roman Empire and after the ten horns had emerged? [It occurs to me that at the tips of each of the 10 toes of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar there are 10 nails, that is, 10 “horns…”] In chapter 8 “the little horn” comes after Greece and after the four generals! [The corresponding Hebrew word begins with the letter ‘kaph’ meaning ‘eye of a needle’ suggesting perhaps a hidden little gate through which the seed of something else might spring, perhaps a daughter such as the Roman Catholic church and her daughters as depicted also in Rev 17:5? As in a little thing between the Eastern and the Western legs of the Roman empire and of said statue of Nebuchadnezzar…] In the aspect of the chronological order – the little horns in Daniel 7 and 8 cannot be the same!

 

Geographically: The Bible does not describe “the little horn” in Daniel 7 to be a conquering power. It has its place “among” the ten horns. It uproots three horns with the help of secular powers, but remains in its place geographically. In other words, it remains small. In contrast “the little horn” in Daniel 8 grows exceedingly great to incorporate areas in “the south,” in “the east” and also “the Beautiful Land,” referring to Judea. Many believe the little horn in Daniel 7 refers to the Papacy but the Papacy has never thrived in “the south” (south of Italy) nor in “the east” and certainly not in Judea. [Don’t forget the ties between the Catholic Catherine and Prophet Mohammed! And don’t forget the results of the work of the Jesuit monks and missionaries in China as everywhere else on this planet…, yet, your point here may still be valid.] Thus, geographically “the little horn” in Daniel 7 and 8 does not appear to refer to the same power! Let’s read Daniel 8:9:

 

Out of one of them came another horn, a little one, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the beautiful land. (NRSV)

 

Its Earthly Power: “The little horn” in Daniel 7 remained “little” in earthly power. There are no indications that this power grew. In contrast, it is interesting to see how Daniel 8 describes the different powers using the word “great.” The ram “became great,” the goat became “very great” and the “little horn” became “exceedingly great.” In other words, “the little horn” in Daniel 8 seems to be the greatest of the four world powers! Measured by earthly power, “the little horn” in Daniel 7 and 8 are not the same!  

 

Spiritually: From a spiritual perspective the two horns in Daniel 7 and 8 have some things in common. They both reject God as the highest authority. But there are some differences as well. “The little horn” in Daniel 7 attacked “set times and law” where as the one in Daniel 8 attacked the sanctuary. [Isn’t God’s true sanctuary very much a sanctuary in time, as in the keeping of God’s true Seventh-day Sabbaths… not excluding those seven special annual Sabbaths proclaimed as they are for ever? Which is to say, Aren’t those two attacks very much attacking the very same thing?!!!]

 

Therefore, chronologically, geographically, spiritually and in regard to earthly power, I believe that it is convincingly shown that “the little horn” in Daniel 7 is not the same power as “the horn, which started small” in Daniel 8. [Toby, your words reminds me of Rev 17:11, “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” Do you see what I mean, as you say it “is not the same power…,” yet it “is of the seven…” I certainly agree with you that the Vatican powers are not “the same power” as the Roman Empire per se, which Empire I believe is very well characterized as the Kingdom or Empire of Caesar Tiberius and as described per your teachings re Daniel Chapter 11 – and which is continuing even now as evidenced by e.g. the reckoning of time, that is, by the calendar beginning its reckoning with the reign of Caesar Tiberius and which calendar is most familiar to us under the name “the Gregorian calendar.” (Notice that the name being used, Gregorian, is that of one of the Vatican Popes, not one of the Caesars, thus even in this particular, the two are identifying with one another as does a father and his daughter! Considering the fact that the Vatican has a later and different beginning and that it is as you say in multiple ways of a different nature, yes, it is very clear that they are not the same any more than a daughter is the same as her father. There are similarities, certain inescapable ties, but they are not the same! Yet, like a father and his daughter, the two cannot be entirely separated. So also re the Roman Empire vs. its “daughter,” the people of the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church! The latter began very small and in some ways it remains exceedingly small, for instance geographically, yet its influence has indeed become “exceedingly great...” though rarely out in the open. It has been and is a mighty force behind the curtains of political powers, not only in Europe, but also in North and South America, as well as throughout the Moslem world and even into the Far East and the Chinese Empire!] Thus, the Papacy has never been and will never become a world power according to the Book of Daniel! Did you get that? [Yes, not per se. I agree. What the daughter does in the name of her father is not her own but belongs to her father, yet she is most certainly a part of her father's empire, is she not?! To perceive the Vatican powers as being something entirely distinct and separate from the Roman Empire is clearly not in line with reality as it is, is it?!!!] There are only four world powers – not five! [Yes, indeed! Two that are one should not be reckoned as more than one, that is certainly as it should be! I committed only too much of that kind of mistake in laying the groundwork for my own family! Perhaps I still am?] In Daniel 7:24 the “little horn” is said to be “different from the earlier ones” and this description fits well to the “little horn” as a spiritual power in contrast to the four secular world powers. The four world powers were interested in territorial control but the “little horn” in religious control. [Yes, and yet, both are interested in total control – as in “one world government” and as evidenced also by the entry in Svensk Uppslagsbok (1934:) “Ekume'niska möten el. Ekumeniska synoder kallades sedan gamla kyrkans tid de rikssynoder (urspr. utlysta av kejsaren), vilkas beslut fingo gällande kraft för hela kyrkan; de blevo kyrkans första gemensamma rättsliga organ, ett uttryck för dess yttre enhet, samtidigt som de voro organ för statens makt över kyrkan…” And in the end, what if anything is the difference between ”territorial control” and “religious control?” Aren’t both of those terms referencing nothing other than the control of the people being defined either one way or another?]

 

Conclusion

The Roman Empire and not the Papacy is the fulfillment of Daniel 8:9. [Yes, if we all too narrowly look upon the Papacy alone as the fulfillment of the prophecy we will most certainly miss the greater part of the big picture, yet the Papacy is part and parcel of the whole and of that fourth section of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue! – And this is true whether we consider the little horn at the beginning of, or at the very end of, the two legs of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue.] The Roman Empire was the horn that “grew exceedingly great.” This is supported by looking at the chronology, the origin, the characteristics, the directions of expansion and maybe most of all by the incredible growth of this empire. [Which fact may be easily confirmed by anyone who is willing to look into the foundations of United States law as portrayed and defined in for instance Black’s Law Dictionary...! Which foundations no doubt are very much the same also in Europe and in most of the remainder of this planet.]

 

This is the first round on the topic of the Roman Empire and the Papacy. Please be on the lookout for more to come.

 

 

 

 

 

Toby Joreteg MD, PhD

www.TobyJoreteg.com