By the way, Loren Seibold wrote two excellent columns on Adventist eschatology mixed with premonitions of America's economic downfall.

For a refresher on how those conversations went, here is the first article, and here is the second article.

I've always said that Time Of Trouble theology is Adventist hellfire

Gates experiences are different than what you might be experiencing in school.
He may expound on what may happen, he might tell you what he thinks but who would have ever thought the economic depression would be as severe or overtake us as quickly as it did?

People complain that the governmnet didnt know how bad of shape the country was in and told us, but they didnt. Gates sounds like a closer version of the economic change that has affected the world in terms of magnatude than any other source that I've been exposed to.

It may not go as far as he said. But his experiences internationally make it pretty real to him.
I would be interested in someone disproving his accounts, refrences or experiences.
If he is lying about not being able to change US dollars in different country's that would be significant and go to show he is just begging for money, but I have had experiences changing US currency in places that have always taken it before and its not as easy as it was!
I used to get a price discount if I would pay in US dollars in some places. Not any more.
You used to go to Canada for cheap vacations and enjoy everything just like you were in America and in the last few months/year Canadian money has been on par or worth MORE than US.
Buisness lines of credit (short term debt) is at 4% or a bit more but historically safer long term debt (like home mortgages) is around 6%.
When has long term ever been worse interest than short term?
One may discount Gates as Chicken Little but if one had any experience in buisness or enough birthdays you would know that some REALLY wierd stuff is going on.

And this is from the same folks that told ministers to opt out of SS, not provide their families with life insurance, wholesale lay off pastors but not sell the conference office?

Yes time is short............very short. Get out of the cities. Find a little place in the country that is safe. You must begin to have a garden. We have raised an honorless generation that cannot feed themselves. They will take what you have when they get hungry.

The admonition is "Occupy until I come". Mankind has never stood closer to the coming of our Lord and Savior!

Last but not least, I have a problem with the religious buzz word "sacrifice". If you give God a cup of water and he gives back a rain barrel full, where is the sacrifice? You cannot out give God!!!

mi dos centavos
Barry Millet

There is evidence proving that ADRA is a chicken-hearted two-faced cult. I'm not surprised that David Gates is a false prophet.

I guess I come to these issues from a totally different angle - and I may be well off track, but these are the thougts/feelings when I hear people debating these issues: As a church we've been trying hard over the last decades to be mainstream, part of the borad protestant/Christian body of believers. Not to appear as crazies, whackos, whatever.

Still, this our world and our culture (very broadly speaking, I include here all humanity, with extremely few exceptions) is on a path of self distruction. We're really deep down not understanding that the resources on this planet are limited, that the environement is not suided to the wanton "growth" that is the mantra of every world economy etc. We seek techological solutions to what is fundamentaly a huge moral problem, thinking that new inovations, new energy sources, etc will save us from the current death slide.
Essentially the planet is moving close to it's limits in terms of handling the cockroach style mentality and behavoiur we have, as humanity. Economic problems and climate issues, overpopulation, resource sharing, dealing with waste, all of these are tell-tales some of us talk about, with no one doing anything of significance about it.
Expecting some technological breakthrough, some inventive miracle. After all has this not helped us in the past? Maybe we've already reached the breakpoint, and only a behavioural change based on moral paradigm shift is ever going to help, if it is not too late. But I am raving on...
In this context, what gives us the right to shake our heads and wave our fingers at the likes of Jim Jones in Guyana or David Koresh and his crowd in Waco, Texas?

Yes, of course they had weird ideas, and did some weird things maybe. However I see these type of alternative societies as attempting a change, somewhat misguided perhaps, to the deadly mindless path we have been going for a few thousand years now. Do we really think we (as a society) are so much better than them?
Instead of surrounding them with tanks and sending heavily armed troups for their distruction (the natural behaviour of our culture to anything that challenges it to the core)****, maybe we should study these alternatives with less vitriolic vervour and with less deadly force. We may learn something, and maybe change.
I am not saying what Koresh and and Jones did is right.
But there is deep down a fundamental human yearning of stepping off the tread mill, opting out of the rat race leading absolutely nowhere and leaving us feeling empty despite all our so called "achievments".

So I am not so ready to dismiss doomsayers. They may be misguided in many respects. I would still listen. Not necessarily to the detail, but to help me reflect, and perhaps change some of my core values, which say that I have to keep busy all my life, to amass some level of wealth, and achieve some status in society in order to be regarded as successful and feel as such. Maybe it will make me think at all the material stuff I have, which helps really no one (least of all me..), and in turn puts extreme strain the planet, increases the energy footprint which has absolutey nowhere else to go and generally damages the world and my fellow travellers on this journey we call life.
I have to admit that I am not yet acting in relation to these espused values...

Still these are the thoughts and feelings I get I am listening to "doomsayers", "whackos", and "narrow-minded end-time obsessives".
As well as to the "mature" reactions they usually receive from us, the sophisticated lot, who are now well above such extreme views and behaviour.

**** This destrutive behaviour toward anything that challenges our culture is manifested not just in events like Waco etc, but also in the way we destroy the cultures of the Bushmen of the Kalahari, or the Pigmeys. Or the Aboriginal way of life in Australia. These are peoples who have not subscribed to the values of our society and its "you have to work hard in order to eat" basic tenet. We've destroied them, and continue to do so. Initially by killing them, then by just encroaching on their teritories, or trying to change their way of life in order to... civilise... them.

Are there any problems our world is facing now that would not be reduced if we stopped overpopulating; ignoring the first command to "be fruitful and multiply"?

Over population, as Thomas Malthus predicted is now facing us. It is not in the developed countries, but the third world countries where there is famine, starvation, cholera and other diseases that has its own terrible way of limiting the population. If it is not curtailed, the predictions, ominous as they are, will be a self-destroying future for all of us.

The crazy thing is for one thing the idea that we should unload our assets to send it on to some other place and for what? So we can get indigenous peoples in jungles to live in paranoia and fear? Is it so we can bring "development" to them so within a generation they won't be able to provide food for them selves either? I don't know, maybe we're still putting bras on the women. Or maybe it is to preach the mark of the beast to them. That would always be an improvement to their lives.

Is David Gates really an associate director for ADRA? And as for the dollar being worth less, now we can experience what a lot of the world experiences when they travel. Funny how when it happens to us it is apocalyptic. When it happens to them it is a bargain.

Jesus was very hard on those who proclaimed a "tradition" that was not based on the Bible. By doing so they "nullify the word of God," Mark 7:8-13.

JESUS SAID:
Luke 12:46: He will come on a day and at an hour when we do not expect Him. (Obviously NOT when everybody thinks He is about to come!) Please notice, that Jesus was talking to believers in this passage!

Matt. 24:36-44: In this passage Jesus tells us that life goes on as usual until He comes on the skies. He further says that "one will be taken and the other left." That means, according to Jesus' own words, a believer and an unbeliever will be working side by side UNTIL He is seen in the sky. Then the believers will be lifted up to meet Him in the air.

Jesus said the same in Luke 17:26-36. He said it over and over again that NO ONE knows the day or the hour!

1 Thess: 5:1-3: He will come like a thief in the night when people say "peace and safety." (Right now people don't say peace and safety!)

Jesus has promised to be with us till the very end, Matt. 28:20. He will supply all our needs, Phil 4:19. Study Psalm 91 and you will find that 9 times "bad" things are mentioned but 31 times God tells us how He will deliver us.

God has a wonderful plan for us, even in the time of the end! Trust in the Lord with all your heart and He will make our paths straight, Proverbs 3:5!

So, what do we have to fear?

Toby Joreteg MD, PhD
EmpoweredProphecies.com

I appreciate the numerous helpful perspectives that have made this a well-rounded conversation. While we see through different eyes, perhaps there are some things that we might all agree upon, however we interpret current events (and we'll leave puerile name-calling out of it if that's OK).

1. First, we can certainly agree without hesitation that the U.S. economy is in really bad shape right now, and that it is negatively impacting other countries' economies too. That seems to be a given.
2. Second, we can also agree that it happened before in a somewhat similar fashion. This is not a proposition, it's just history (Great Depression).
3. Third, I think that we can agree that while humanity has collectively undergone periods of extreme crisis that were widely considered to be signals of the end of the age(s), we eventually came out the other side. This seems pretty self-evident to me.
4. Fourth, we can probably agree that it is unethical or at least unkind to make sweeping claims of impending massive destruction with no more evidence to show than a tale of highly secretive military intellegence leaked by some generals' wives.

I'm not sure which is worse, expecting the public to unquestioningly accept something so cataclysmic, or the public that actually accepts it unquestioningly. Would it be wrong to ask for a little more evidence when something so presumably monumental is at stake, or must I simply take the word of well-spoken Adventists who say so?

5. Fifth, I hope that we can agree that it would be extremely unethical for me to peddle a doomsday narrative that terrifies people into unloading their assets (with the expectation that the right thing to do is to unload them) when I stand to gain from their divestiture. That seems to be a very clear conflict of interest.

Finally, I would ask, when does our eschatology turn into self-fulfilling prophecy? Do we have any kind of divine, prophetic mandate to oppose the destruction that appears inevitable?

It seems to me that the narratives we buy into largely determine the outcomes we get, n'est pas?

@ Dick Larson--

David Gates claims, in one of the two segments of the Convergence of Crises videos, that he is an executive director for ADRA, so...as of 2008. An Adventist Review article from 1999 says "David Gates is a volunteer medical missionary pilot and country director for ADRA in Guyana."

Before making too big a deal of that, it should be noted that ADRA's work in Guyana might not extend much farther than a handful of (volunteer?) workers and Gates himself. ADRA Guyana does not have it's own web page.

---

I appreciate Toby's insertion of the other side of the Scriptural conversation, particularly the reminders that the end of the age may not be as obvious as our "time of trouble" narratives would make believe, but more importantly, that the Gospel is not a gospel of fear.

Thank you Toby!

My wife and I are currently reading Barbara Kingsolver's Animal, Vegetable, Miracle which was recently insightfully reviewed by Heather Isaacs Royce here. (Actually, I am reading Kingsolver's book vicariously through my wife as she is so inspired that she can't help sharing.) We have been plotting a path oddly congruent with the one outlined by Gates but seemingly for very different reasons.

I recently watched a video consisting of mostly Adventists who have gone out into the wilderness to live off the grid. What struck me was their motivation. Fear. Their fear of end time mayhem, destruction, and even a fear of being faced with horrible decisions that might lead them to compromise their faith and ethics led them to isolate themselves from society, living "off the grid".

Barbara Kingsolver (or my wife as inspired by her) has a very different motivation. We should live locally not out of fear but love. Love for the land should lead us to care for (and yes even eat!) indigenous species of plants and animals. Love for one another should encourage us to do all the good we can for as many as we can as often as we can. Love for our planet should find outlet in environmentally friendly practices. Love for God should be expressed in these ways so that we can show ourselves and others that God is love.

Last year I listened to David Gates give a similar speech at our Alumni Weekend. His polarizing rhetoric and fear mongering appalled me. I was supposed to stand up and give the benediction afterward and I was nearly too stunned to speak. I was tempted (inspired?) to respond. Instead, I read the prayer from my notes which I had thankfully written down previously. Here is what I was thinking of saying, "Pastor Gates, you probably didn't realize that the enemy from the other pole of Adventism was sitting right next to you on the platform this morning. I found your message disturbing, out of place, out of touch, and in many ways un-Christian. And yet, any time we stand up to speak about vitally important and inter-related themes such as faith, justice, race, religion, community, love, economics, homosexuality, hope, heaven, the environment, and God our individual words always fall far short. We need one another in conversation to even begin to approach an accurate description of these things, much less to find our way to solutions for the problems these topics engender or to eventually stumble together through the gates of heaven by the grace of God. So, I want to affirm your voice within our community. I have learned from your passion and sense of urgency. Your strong opinions and amazing experiences have inspired me to speak up for what I believe as well."

I know times are bad but like Monte Sahlin says, "The recession has provided a unique opportunity to see the real character of organized religion".

Brent,

You should have said out loud what you think you were saying. =)

I think my wife was at that event and walked away with similar bad taste in her mouth.

Gates has a inspirational story of how he ended up as a missionary pilot in the bush; he felt God's call, quit his job at McKee, and moved his family to Guyana. I think that the steps he's taken on his convictions is admirable.

Unfortunately, the impression that I got when I've heard him speak (this was a few years ago at my graduation where he recounted his personal biography), I left feeling that the only way to truly serve God was to do what Gates did (which is erroneous).

Thanks for the Sahlin link as well. We'll be discussing this theme this week in our SS group.

Sorry:

"You should have said out loud what you were thinking of saying."

Maybe a direct confrontation like Zane was contemplating isn't for the best but it would be nice to see churches, schools , campmeetings and the like reconsider contracting with him. The same would be true for the fly by night (or 28 nights) evangelists.

I watched the two videos and it's exactly like being at a Seventh-day Adventist Church service. The Seventh-day Adventist leadership will certainly have hell to pay for sanctioning the ministry of heretics like David Gates.

I am a long-time lurker but have never posted. I agree completely with Shubee. Sanctioning this kind of poison is unconscionable. Like most of his ilk, he will pass. The question is, how many poor souls will he take with him. The church, should it find the courage to expose this individual for the delusional paranoid personality that he demonstrates, does need to take care that it does not make a martyr out of him.

I like your point Jerry!
Those who are leaders for youth have a special duty to screen for this sort of thing. Young people are very vulnerable. When will someone in power have the courage to honestly confront the flaws in Gates message?

Brenton,

Very helpful and timely. Thanks!

Shoob,
You keep using the term heretical, but I'm not so sure that David Gates (or Ed Reid) is saying anything that opposes Church teaching, except perhaps setting a more rigid timeframe for the second advent than most Adventists would like. Generally, though, the Time-of-Trouble narrative is pretty ingrained in the collective SDA psyche, and I think it derives from our own Sister White.

Jerry,
Welcome to the discussion. Glad you spoke up! Michael said above that for David Gates, these things he's teaching seem very real. I would agree. When you combine apocalyptic expectation (buying into a particular narrative) with situations that seem to validate that narrative, and then add to that (and this is probably the most important thing) the lack of dialogue between Adventist missionaries (or evangelists) and Adventist biblical scholars and theologians, it's almost inevitable that scenarios like this will occur.

Speaking of Ed Reid, I find it almost more troubling that someone with so high a position in Adventist leadership would be pushing the same (end-is-coming-get-rid-of-your-assets) story, particularly under the auspices of the Stewardship Department for the North American Division. Again, while I certainly do not doubt Reid's sincerity (please hear that), I would question whether that is responsible stewardship.

Jared Wright wrote:

Shoob,
You keep using the term heretical, but I'm not so sure that David Gates (or Ed Reid) is saying anything that opposes Church teaching

At 9 minutes to 16 minutes into the first video, David Gates is clearly teaching "the great week of history" were the world will end exactly at the end of 6,000 years and that Jesus died at the 4,000 year mark. He attributes this theory to the Adventist pioneers. He speaks as if the year 2031 is a close of time prophecy but then qualifies his time setting by saying that God will shorten the time in righteous.

This article helps to state a clear concern over certain methods - conscious or unconscious - used in this case by David Gates to "spread the SDA message".

I'm not questioning Gates sincerity either, or that he got good intentions, nor that he's done some extensive work for God... but even though he would be the SDA pope himself, it is important that SDA leadership and fellowships openly question some of his methods and especially voice our concern if these methods are repeated and being adopted by other SDA leaders and upcoming leaders.

If people agree with the method David Gates used in this particular video, then I have a clear concern and I hope there will be many more open discussions about these kinds of "sincere" preaching methods. Because if you study the basis for his "warnings" and "prophesies", you will see that they are based upon exaggerated fantasies that are presented as solid and logical facts. That is not a good method, hence, we ought to voice our concern!

The only question is, how do you voice a concern in the most constructive manner, when we are a global fellowship with divergent SDA ideologies.

The problem with David Gates is not his style nor his information about the current, global economic crisis. (Who knows what the comprehensive facts really are?) The problem is his ignorance of the teaching of Jesus about the second coming. Read Matthew 24-25. Christ says very clearly that wars, depressions, poverty, disasters, etc., are NOT signs that the end of time is near. Christ says this very specifically and repeatedly. He indicates clearly that these so-called "signs of the times" are normal conditions under the current reign of evil. He states very bluntly that "no one knows" when Christ will return. There is no basis for predicting 2031 or any other date, because our Lord Himself has clearly said "no one knows the time." (Matthew 24:36) It is equally likely to come much sooner or much later than 2031. David Gates seems to have forgotten William Miller and the Great Disappointment.

What is true, I believe, about David Gates and lots of other people is that they are so shocked by current events that it seems to them that surely Jesus must come, the age must end. Unfortunately, the facts of the matter are that this is an essentially self-centered view of the world. Certainly the Jews and others who died in the death camps of the 1930s and 1940s had a greater right to see Jesus come right away, as did those slaughtered in Stalin's USSR, Cambodia or Rwanda. Or all those who have died from AIDS or cancer or heart disease. If Gates has worked as a medical missionary and an ADRA staffer, he seems to have failed the basics of compassionate social analysis. Just because a lot of middle class people in the richest nations on the globe are shook up about a recession (or even a depression) does not mean more in terms of "signs of the times" than do the suffering of people today in the Congo or Darfur. God cares more about the poor and hurting than He does about American professionals who have trouble exchanging currency during international travel!

As I read through every one of these comments, I must say that some of them disturbed me. For one, some seem to think that those who are in high positions of authority of the SDA church should avoid being sentinals because it makes us look foolish as a denomination. To those who hold this, I present for your consideration the following questions:

1. John the Baptist was sent to announce Christ's "first" coming. Was he not derided, scoffed at and labeled as a religious cook?

2. Look at Noah. What a conspiracy theorist! What a doomsdayer! What a nutcase! "Hey did you hear Pastor Noah saying that it's time to come back to God and get ready because the earth is about to be destroyed? He claims that a FLOOD is going to destroy the earth! I hope this doesn't get to anybody outside of the church, they will discredit us and our whole institutional image will be shattered!"

3. How about Elijah prophesying that there would be neither due nor rain; and the showdown between good and evil on Mt. Carmel?

I ask you, what would we say about these three (and many other) Bible characters today? Would we shrivel in embarrassment as many have done after hearing David Gates message? Would some of us not disowned them, calling them false prophets, heretics, or worse? Would we have allowed them to speak at our pulpit?

We are not here to make our church look good, we are here to spread the three angels message, preach the word, so that we can go home.

I do not live or die based on what David Gates says or does, and I certainly don't need to defend him, that's not the point of this post.

However, I do find it disturbing that when somebody is passionate about something we try to "shush" them because they aren't preaching something mainstream. We discount them as crazies. Is it ok to check into what they are saying for ourselves? IMHO it is worse to be closeminded and dreadfully wrong, than to be open to new ideas and to verify their truthfulness (or deceit) for ourselves. We can test things by the word of God.

Furthermore, we must also realize that these "conspiracy theories" are not to be tossed aside at first glance. Revelation 13 alone makes a case for having to be a "conspiracy theorist" to believe the things that it espouses...I mean come on, economic boycotts against a religious group for not keeping a day holy and, speaking of which, a national Sunday law in free America? Also, did not the religious leaders of Jesus' day conspire against Him? Were they not driven by satan to make the plans and take the actions that they did?

It is better to be "overly ready" than to be ill-prepared.

I, too, like many of you thought that Jesus would come as a thief in the night, and, indeed the scriptures do seem to give this a lot support. However, have we forgotten the council in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-6?

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

"But ye, brethren, are NOT in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief in the night"

No, but the apostle goes on as he says

"Ye are all the CHILDREN of LIGHT, and the children of the day: we are NOT of night, NOR of darkness"

He concludes that since we know this that we should

"...not sleep, as do OTHERS; but let us watch and be sober."

The second coming will come as a surprise to the wicked. It should not come as a surprise to those of God's people who are "looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of God..." (2nd Peter 3:12).

We forget that we are not citizens of this planet. This earth was hijacked by Satan himself. We should quit thinking that all will continue just as it always has, we know that it will not. We cannot think of ourselves as citizens of planet earth, but citizens of Heaven who desperately want to go home.

Friends, I do not believe that God intended to catch his people by surprise. As Amos 3:7 says "Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets."

I do not set times for the Lord to come, but I can tell you from doing extensive research of my own that Mr. Gates is not simply blowing smoke. I have not been able to confirm all of his claims, but that's ok. We cannot expect to find all of this stuff in mainstream newspapers, and if we wait until all of this becomes public knowledge to get ready, it'll probably be too late.

The climate is extremely disturbing out there. The economic crisis could very well bring on the scenes of Revelation 13 as a global crisis is solved with a global call to unity (Constantine used the Sunday law to bring about unity, remember). I'm not saying it WILL, but I am saying that I find it a likely possibility. I believe that it will prove to be a huge catalyst to bring about the Sunday law (even if it doesn't seem like that's the way it is heading at first). There is much evidence aside from the economic landscape that also points to Christ's coming. These things are happening closer and closer together as they are birth pangs.

Sorry for the length, and I hope that I have not offended anybody with this post. If I have, I sincerely apologize and I would like to speak with you if we need to make anything right. Thanks.

God Bless,
John Erickson

Thanks for joining the discussion, John. Your suggestion that God's people should not be taken by surprise is important. We should have learned something from the Great Disappointment and our continuing study of end times for 164 years. A significant lesson that I have taken from 1844 is that God can do incredible things--even with people who get things wrong. That a church of 15 million people has grown from that small group of believers in New York is incredible.

A second lesson that I think about often is the micro end of the world. Truly there are worlds that are ending all the time. Jared Diamond's book Crash tells of five civilizations that have ended and cites reasons for each that sound very similar to what one reads in Revelation about end times. Individual worlds also end--divorce, death, displacement by armies, floods. What have we learned from our study of end times on a global level to inform what happens at a particular place and time? Does our knowledge of end times makes us more compassionate people willing to help those who are experiencing end times right now.

I have come to the conclusion that it is how we respond to the ends of time around us, in our families, communities, and countries that is our preparation for the end of the whole world. Feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, doing the things that Jesus says He will ask in the end is the way to prepare.

It is always true that those who are active for the Lord get the darts thrown at them----and it will always be true.
If you cannot see the signs of Christ's coming I feel sorry---WHEN ???? I do not know.The bible says WATCH.I/you may die tonight---are you ready to meet JESUS????? Forget the calender.
Willard Regester

John Erickson,

I can appreciate how someone coming from a very rightwing perspective might be disturbed by some of these comments. But consider what you wrote:

"However, I do find it disturbing that when somebody is passionate about something we try to "shush" them because they aren't preaching something mainstream. We discount them as crazies." Consider David Koresh. He was "shushed" by the church because he wasn't preaching mainstream. Unfortunately, he still managed to take many SDA souls and their assets with him to a fiery grave. Passion is not a substitute for well-reasoned thinking and analysis. People like Koresh appear "sincere" and "passionate" and maybe somehow innocently outside the mainstream in the early phases. It is later (often too late) that their danger becomes apparent.

I'm not suggesting that Gates is a Koresh. He actual sounds like many a right-winger I've heard over the years. "Seeking a Sanctuary" makes the point that this kind of eschatological speculation in Adventism prepares people for speculative deceptions from people like Koresh. I think the church would do well do speak out about this kind of message. Unfortunately, I think it is too well entrenched as an SDA tradition to disappear. (The SDAs aren't alone in this kind of thing either).

As for the Thessalonians passage, nowhere does it say the saints will know the date. Only that they should be in a state of readiness so they won't be caught unprepared. The parable of the 10 virgins illustrates this well--the element of surprise is in relation to the preparedness. We can be in a state of readiness today even if the 2nd coming isn't for another 1000 years.

The constant refrain of "being ready" has been used since the first century. What does "being ready" actually mean? If we are doing our best in helping others and showing love and compassion is there something in addition that we must be doing to "be ready"?

Or, is it a mantra consistently repeated and when asked for definition, what is the response?
Who is "more" ready than someone else? If God is the judge, he will know that by our actions. Is there another method to judge? It can become
a checklist for some to judge the readiness of others. God forbid that we are absorbed in such a useless exercise.

Monte
I thought that was incredibly well put. I'm not sure if you remember an article published back in your old Insight Magazine in the mid-70s in which the writer stated that if Jesus would not return before the end of the 1970s, it would lead to a crisis of faith among the young people of the church. It seems to me that time-setting ("within my lifetime")has had a very deleterious effect on Adventists in that church theology for a hundred years has often been driven, not by exegesis, but by an attempt to deal with the existential crisis following the failure of God to cash the apocalyptic checks written out by Adventist end-time preachers.

This has mainly taken two main forms. First there was M.L.Andreasen's attempt in 1937 (The Sanctuary Service)to explain the failed parousia in terms of perfectionism. Ellen White had argued that God was waiting for Adventists to perfectly reflect the image of Jesus. Andreasen put it this way: "As the high priest enters into the most holy, so God's people now are to stand face to face with God. They must know that every sin is confessed, that no stain of sin remains. The cleansing of the sanctuary in heaven is dependent upon the cleansing of God's people on earth" (p. 297).

In the aftermath of the publication of QOD in 1957, Robert Brinsmead took Andreasen's theology one step further, and argued that the latter rain was God's cleansing of the human sanctuary, allowing the saints to live through the last day's of earth's history without an intercessor.

After Brinsmead abandoned this theology in 1972, Herb Douglas attempted to revive its general idea in his so-called 'harvest principle'. People have generally debated these issues as if it were a question of perfectionism vs Augustinian-Reformational ideas of original sin, but the driving force was all the time the attempt to deal with the failure of prophecy to vouchsafe the second coming of Christ, the raison d'être of Adventist preaching.

The other attempt at explaining the failed parousia centered around the Minneapolis General Conference session of 1888, and the attempts on the part of a younger generation of Adventist preachers to revitalize the dogma-driven preaching of the denomination by focusing attention on the person of Jesus.

Waggoner and Jones preached a standard holiness version of salvation, rather in the Methodist tradition, and it attracted a fair share of attention because of its evangelical focus. The only thing that was radical about it was that it put evangelical preaching ahead of the classical Jehovah's Witness approach used almost exclusively up to that point by Adventists. What ultimately would give the Waggoner and Jones message legs, was that Ellen White in 1893 stated that Jesus would already have returned to earth if the message of 1888 had been accepted by the church.

Arthur Daniels, in his "Christ and His Righteousness" (1921, I think) was, to my knowledge, the first one to resurrect the 1888 message and tie it to the future of Adventism. But it was Wieland and Short who made 1888 a household name, when they, in 1951, called for corporate repentance for the failure of the General Conference and the church in general to accept the Waggoner and Jones gospel,which held the keys to the kingdom, and whose acceptance would unleash the final events.

Quite apart from the preposterous idea that God's plans for the future of this planet is contingent on the cooperation of Adventists, it is troubling to see false theology, which you so aptly describe, providing much of the energy that has gone into SDA theological developement over the last 100 years or so.

RT, thanks for your input, I know where you are coming from with the David Koresh thing. We will always have Adventist brothers and sisters who appear to be sincere but could mislead the brethren. What camp David Gates falls into, I will let you decide. I can only tell you how the Holy Spirit has used brother Gates messages to inspire and spur me to action.

Also, I submit that the people who were deceived by David Koresh would perhaps not have been deceived had they simply compared what Mr. Koresh was saying to the Word of God and asked for wisdom "which God gives to all liberally and without reproach" and it would have "...been given to him." However, I do understand that many people will not do their due diligence and will be deceived.

Now, I will admit that I was initially frightened at Mr. Gates message. His predictions were indeed apocalyptic and if not properly interpreted, fanatical and sensational (as many have accused him). However, I must tell you that fear was only the starting point. God has been showing me that living for Him is always the best option and leads to a fulfilling life on earth and an infinitely better life in the world beyond. I serve Jesus because I love Him, and I am inclined to serve Him whether he comes in a matter of months, years, or perhaps not even in my lifetime, because His way is the best way. The devil doesn't have anything on God, I know because God has been giving me the victory in many key areas of my life.

Elaine Nelson:

"The constant refrain of "being ready" has been used since the first century. What does "being ready" actually mean? If we are doing our best in helping others and showing love and compassion is there something in addition that we must be doing to "be ready"?

"Or, is it a mantra consistently repeated and when asked for definition, what is the response?
Who is "more" ready than someone else? If God is the judge, he will know that by our actions. Is there another method to judge? It can become
a checklist for some to judge the readiness of others. God forbid that we are absorbed in such a useless exercise."

Yes, you are indeed right about the repeated call to "be ready". I think what I was getting at about being ready is that we must make sure that we are getting closer and closer to Jesus by studying His Word, listening for His voice, and communing daily with Him. You're right, it isn't a checklist. Our walk with God is something that is personal.

My comments about being ready were not so much directed at those who have an active growing relationship with the Lord as it was toward those who are sleeping and are growing further and further apart from Christ. I say this not to sound judgmental, we all must take stock of our lives and allow Christ to sanctify us. I say this as a student at an Adventist college who sees many of his fellow students going astray and following whole-heartedly after the ways of the world. I want them to wake up as the Lord has done to me. Yet I realize that I cannot do anything apart from Christ.

Willard Regester: You also bring up a great point--the close of probation for you or I may come at any time. This makes it all the more important that we are right with Christ everyday. I am not attempting to set a date and I hope it didn't come across like that. What I am saying is that I don't think Jesus wouldn't let us get to the most important event in history (His second coming) without giving us due warning. As we know the Bible says that "...it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (Joel 2:28).

From the article:
--
..the military will “seal” and prevent entry into or exit from all major cities, and soldiers will come and remove the bodies. Just like Katrina, Gates says.
--

I guess I am just happy that the military will be doing some good cleaning up the corpses. Being that the economy will have collapsed and they won't be getting paid it is a helpful thought to think they will still have some societal purpose rather then being well armed marauders.

The interesting thing in all this is how in reality we cannot conceive what would happen with a global economic collapse which is what would happen if the US economy collapsed. The death toll would be staggering, and having a garden would be nice if you wanted to try and protect it from the hungry hordes looking for food. I can't say it is worth while to protect my garden so that my family can eat, then again any organized group will be able to get your food if they really want, you would have to form compounds and militia to protect what you have.

Not to promising world view. But then again even if it happened that does not make the end of the world aka the second coming necessarily the result anymore then it was at the restructuring after the Civil war in the US, the Soviet purges, the Great Depression or the Genocide in places like Rwanda and Somalia.

There are probably better techniques to help us to not be quite so materialistic. Though it seems like 10-20 years ago the fad was to simplify but it never really caught on.

We seem to be failing at our local mission field too maybe that is why the church leadership is so intent upon the third world.

Ron

"--the close of probation for you or I may come at any time. This makes it all the more important that we are right with Christ everyday."

Why shouldn't we all feel that we are ready to go at any time? Some of us who are in our ninth decade have no worries. Does that mean we are complacent? Why shouldn't we have full assurance that we will be ready? That's the last of this gal's worries. Let others worry, it takes more energy consumed on what is utterly useless. One is either assured of salvation or not, and Adventists are not "supposed" to say they are "saved" (according to the prophet). Balderdash!

Jared,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I hadn't heard of Gates before. I listened to the entire presentation (the long version). It was uncanny how much he sounded like a former pastor we once had--also a former missionary to South America. Same accent, similar emphasis.

Gates is part of a rather large subculture within Adventism. I wasn't aware of him or the very large ministry he has built. Sounds like a South American Danny Shelton--an entrepreneur and strong fundraiser spreading a very conservative message. Browsing his website suggests that he has worked very hard to serve the people of South America and to bring the gospel to that area. A good example to support the hypothesis that church growth depends on "true believers" like Gates. I'm doubtful that the Progressive Adventists can produce that kind of growth, even though Progressive Adventism is where my sympathies lie.

Gates' video presentation offered a number of speculations about the future. The 2031 date is based on 6000 years since sin, which is calculated from AD 31 for Jesus death minus 4000 years. He therefore concludes that sin didn't exist for 31 years, since creation was at year 0. A few problems with that argument: (a) the year of Jesus' death is not known precisely; (b) the dating of creation to 4000 BC is not established anywhere; (c) evidence that the earth is much older than 6000 years is pervasive; (d) his analogy with creation week, sabbatical and Jubilee cycles doesn't work since those were 6/1 cycles whereas he is proposing a 4/2/1 cycle (4000 years to Jesus death, 2000 years to 2nd coming, 1000 years in heaven); (e) year 0 problem in BC/AD; (f) why would Jesus teach nobody knows the time except the Father if it were this simple?

In perusing Gates' website I noticed other interesting facts. For example, on the Media Center page, there was a little notice in red print: "PLEAST [sic] NOTE: David Gates no longer supports the dreams of Ernie Knoll." This suggests that Gates must have supported him at one time (Steve Wohlberg was sympathetic to them at one time too, but like Gates, has now turned away. Birds of a feather...). Having never heard of Ernie Knoll, I did some further digging online and found that he is an Adventist in Marysville CA that has published many dreams (http://www.4hispeople.com/index.html), who many SDAs apparently believe is a prophet, and whose website lists a busy speaking calendar (presumably at SDA churches?). Like many on the right, Knoll seems to be especially concerned about compromises in behavior/belief by Adventists, has a link to Joe Crews' "Creeping Compromise", and had a dream which he published by that name (it is in his online book). Yet another interesting example from the subculture.

I'm impressed by the apparent dedication and sacrifices made by Gates and his family. He speaks sincerely about how he went to South America to learn faith, and how God taught him that if he put it all on the line for Him, God would come through. Listening to his website's "Extreme Faith" video's appeal, I felt like Gates was marginalizing me because I do not have the "extreme faith" that Gates calls people to. I rather doubt many of the things Gates is working so hard for. So, are his mission/miracle stories true? Is God working extra hard for him and not for me because he is doing what God wants us all to do? Or is he a slick salesman and fundraiser for a rapidly growing business (ministry)?

I'd be curious to hear from someone closer to Gates' ministry--how is it perceived? Who comprises his ministry's board? Does he work completely independently, or does he have ministerial credentials from one of the conferences (which?)? Are his income and benefits published?

Back to the Gates' video above...It reminds me of a man Texas Conference president Cyril Miller brought as guest speaker to campmeeting back in the early 1980's. Charles Wheeling was his name, and he stirred up the saints by explaining the Kondratief Cycle and how that implied an imminent collapse of the US stock market and that would usher in the final collapse and 2nd coming. I just googled him to see if he is still around. Sure enough, he is, and still stirring up the saints with his prophecy seminars. Interestingly, now it sounds like he is a fan of Spectrum and AAF! (http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-U-Z/Day-Wheeling.pdf) He was quoted as saying, “A wonderful spirit of tolerance is developing. The Association of Adventist Forums is one such place. Their lectures are outstanding. They publish Spectrum magazine. You need to read it. It will change you. You need to attend their meetings. Then you will
begin to see things more clearly.” I guess a magazine that promotes open-mindedness and a diversity of views is useful even to prophecy speculators because they think open-minded people are more likely to listen to their unorthodox ideas.

Monte Sahlin wrote:

Read Matthew 24-25. Christ says very clearly that wars, depressions, poverty, disasters, etc., are NOT signs that the end of time is near. Christ says this very specifically and repeatedly. He indicates clearly that these so-called "signs of the times" are normal conditions under the current reign of evil.

It sounds to me that you greatly misunderstand Matthew 24-25. There are two scenarios expressed there. Matthew 24:1-35 was scheduled for complete fulfillment in the first century ("Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place") but Matthew 24:36 ff. introduces a cancelled conclusion. The key phrase in Greek in Mt 24:36 and Mark 13:32 is peri de, which means “now about” or “now concerning. It’s used by Paul in 1 Cor. in 7:1, 7:25, 8:1, 12:1 and 16:1 and in other places by Paul and Jesus. It always means “now for the next question” or “…thing.” In response to a letter the Corinthians sent Paul, he answers using that phrase: “Now concerning” the things about which you wrote….

What we have here are two irreconcilable prophecies that are blended together almost invisibly. The first section is an exact, unmistakable delineation of future events. The second insists on your ignorance of the future and cautions you to be ready no matter what.

The three scenarios in the book of Revelation explain this beautifully. The first scenario was a prophesied plan for the first century, the second scenario was intended for a possible end of the world in 1844 and the third scenario goes beyond that time to an even more distant future. See Eugene Shubert's Many World's Interpretation of Bible Prophecy.

We Adventists point at others who teach an eternal hell and say, they convert people out of fear, while we do exactly the same thing, except they are converted out of fear of the coming crisis. Or how about this, "you teach an eternal hell, but God is love, He will not torture you for ever, He will only BBQ you for a few days".
There is some real inconsistency within us, the same standard we use to judge other churches, can indeed now turn around and condemn ourselves. We blame the Mormons for having extrabiblical sources of authority and we do not say our attitude towards EGW writings is of the same nature.
I mean, look, if your friend is going to visit you next week, and your friendship is really strong, there is no reason for you to panic, you'd actually look forward to his visit. You wouldn't even have this mentality of "Oh, he's coming soon, what do I do now?! Oh no! I need to be ready". You would probably say "OK, so he's coming, what can I do to make my house more comfortable for him to stay."
We send warnings that terrify people, and then tell them "By the way, God loves you"; but hey, wait, they do not truly believe God loves them, because they first heard all the terrible stuff. Their hearts are still filled with fear! Love? Forget about it for now!
The fault with guilt tripping and crisis mongering is that, it is based on a faulty assumption, that somehow those living before the end of the time could be more relaxed Christians, that somehow they do not need to attain a standard so high as ours to be saved, and we, since are living in this end of the time, need to love the Lord even more. Or somehow, the only reason we need to be ready is the Lord is coming soon, and those generations before in reality never needed to be ready.
The perfection of the last generation, yes, I believe it. But I believe it as in the interpretation of Ty Gibson who teaches that the reason the last generation of Christians will be perfect is because we would have reached such an understanding of God's loving mercies, of His character, which has never been attained before, that God's character will be so crystal clear throughout the globe, that we, if decide to be close to God, that our character will be perfected by this unprecedented personal understanding of God's character. I'm just summarising, Ty definitely taught more.
We focus so much on our own salvation, and it is truly self-centred, it is not conversion, it is self-preservation. I believe that we will reach a milestone when we shed our concern with whether we will be ready when Christ comes back, but we shift our focus to the vindication of God's character.
I often find it funny that so many people apparently have forgotten that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to all the world, and then the end will come. First, there are many countries in the world that are closed to Christianity, just look at those Middle Eastern countries, and North Korea, for crying out loud. Second, I don't believe that most people in the western world have heard the true gospel, that is the gospel of God's true character yet. They have heard of the name of Jesus, they have heard of what religion portrays God to be like. But they have little or vague idea of what God is truly like. Christ is not coming back until His character is made clear to all inhabitants of the earth and everyone has made a decision either for Him or against Him.
Then, I do not believe the US economy is going to collapse, for in that case, the US would not have the power to impose economic sanction on the rest of the world to enter into this union of state and religion. I try not to mention the phrase "Sunday Law", because the problem lies deeper. The final controversy is, is God like that portrayed through the enactment of "Sunday Law", someone who coerces the world to worship, and imposes punishment otherwise, who someone that the true Christians are going to represent, someone who respects the freedom He has given us, to choose to worship Him out of love, or that if we do not love Him, do not even be bothered to even keep His commandments. True Christians, when being faced with 2 options: to coerce the rest of the world to worship like they do; and to be persecuted by the rest of the world; will only choose the latter one. We'd rather be persecuted by the wrong side, than to persecute those who are wrong.

John,

Thanks for adding your voice to the conversation. We are richer for it.

You said, "For one, some seem to think that those who are in high positions of authority of the SDA church should avoid being sentinals because it makes us look foolish as a denomination." And then offered three examples of prophetic voices who called the people of their time back to God in light of current events: John the Baptist, Noah, and Elijah.

In painting David Gates as a persecuted prophet, I think we should consider the example of Jesus as well. I am sure you would agree. The thing I love about Jesus prophetic voice is that his stinging rebukes were reserved for the whitewashed sepulchres of the religious elite, the scribes and Pharisees, who had a warped view that if they could just get Israel to follow the law, then the Kingdom of God would come. They turned a relationship of love into a legalistic system of behavior based rewards and punishments. They also used their position for financial gain. Jesus had something to say about that with a whip in one hand. On the other hand, Jesus spoke comfort to the oppressed and dealt gently with those weighed down by the weight of sin which was exacerbated by their religious leaders. I think Jared's post and comments better exemplify this prophetic tradition.

Growing up Adventist, I've developed an acute sensitivity to fear-mongering at all levels of discourse within the church. Simply put, church speakers find it incredibly difficult to resist speculation capitalizing on fear as motivation for change. History has shown that Christian movements thrive in the face of crisis and stagnate a bit when times are good. Problem is that fear is the anticipation of crisis, while the crisis itself produces the actual need or the awareness of it. The anticipation and the reality are almost always mismatched leading to doubt, regret and certain regression for those who have moved in fear. Motivating change out of fear is an incredibly damaging process that desensitizes people to real life changing ideas when they are presented. Unfortunately, church history has shown that there are always those who cannot resist the capitalization of fear. Someday they will get it more right than wrong, but what will be the cost?

Dave B.

Jared,

Thanks for raising this issue. God uses all sorts of flawed people and imperfect messages to accomplish good things. I do not doubt God has used David Gates.

However, "doing good" is no proof of the truthfulness of one's assertions.

In Matthew 24 and 25, the disciples question Jesus about the chronology of the end. In his response Jesus begins by talking about chronology then gradually moves their attention away from time. His last comment on time is the Parable of the Virgins. In that parable the foolish virgins are precisely those who "know" that time is short.

The final parables in Matthew 25 teach the importance of two questions: Parable of the Talents: What do you think of the Master? Parable of the Sheep and Goats: What did you do for the needy?

These questions are far more significant than our theories about where we are in a putative prophetic scenario.

John McLarty

On Aug. 9, 2008, on his AToday blog, Cliff Goldstein wrote a blog entitled, "Do We Attract Them or Create Them?" It was about the "nutjobs" in the SDA church, and how they come to be. Whether we have these nutjobs because we attract them or create them was never really settled in the discussion, but most responses seemed to side with the "we create them" point of view, and that this was driven by our fear-oriented eschatalogy-based evangelism. Interesting read if you have access to the AToday blog.

RT, I would say we attract them, nuture them and then give them a platform.

See http://www.williamsportsda.com/podcast/ and you don't need an Ipod; you can listen to it with normal Computer technology.

Listen to or download the Coming Crisis and the speaker is no "nutjob." I challenge you to at least give it a try.

Jared,
Thanks for your effort here. Honestly, I had never even heard of this fellow Gates prior to this. A couple things strike me:
-I agree with you that there are clear conflicts of interest involved. Perhaps Gates doesn't personally benefit from folks who would actually do what he is suggesting. Surely his organization (if indeed, ADRA can be said to be his organization) will benefit if people do what he is suggesting.
-Date setting is tempting but never very satisfying in the end...
-I'm often struck at our present day incapability to be listeners with discernment. In other words, preaching is a rich blend of reality, insight, vision, and exaggeration. Our skills at offering rhetoric from the pulpit are not fine tuned and our skill at understanding rhetoric when we hear it is worse yet. At times, perhaps this is one of them, we begin to blend rhetorical flourish with reality and get confused.
-Finally, I find it amusing that those who call for financial sacrificial giving are almost always well off personally. I can't recall a time when I heard a preacher calling for financial sacrifice who was wearing old, old, poor people's clothes. From places of comfort we are often able to see so clearly what others must do.

This is where Gates probably got his information from.

http://www.leap2020.eu/

Shock and awe upon you this time; you have given it so many times to others.

I found this discussion thread very interesting.
It contains indeed a "Spectrum" of opinions!
I would like to make two breif points about the earlier
comments on Matt. 24-25.
First, we need to put Christ's "little apocalypse" in its wider Synoptic context with not only Matt. 24 but Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Second, as in Dan. 8:13-14, an answer(3) must be related to
the question(s) that it responds to. Miller and his later Adventist followers in their 1844 theology failed to relate
verse 14 to verses 9-13.
In Christ's "little apocalypse" the questions are found in Matt. 24:1 and 3; Mark 13:1 and Luke 21:5 and 7. These questions relate to both "near" and "far" events--
(1) to the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 AD ("in this generation"), and
(2) "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world" (Matt. 24:3.) As the Disciple's questions were mixed and blended in their thoughts and words, so were Christ's answers also blended.

I found this discussion thread very interesting.
It contains indeed a "Spectrum" of opinions!
I would like to make two brief points about the earlier
comments on Matt. 24-25.
First, we need to put Christ's "little apocalypse" in its wider Synoptic context with not only Matt. 24 but Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Second, as in Dan. 8:13-14, an answer must be related to
the question(s) that it responded to. Miller and his later Adventist followers in their exegesis of Dan. 8 and their 1844 theology failed to relate
Dan. 8:14 to Dan. 8:9-13 and 23.
In Christ's "little apocalypse" the questions are found in Matt. 24:1 and 3; Mark 13:1 and Luke 21:5 and 7. These questions relate to both "near" and "far" events--
(1) to the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 AD ( in "this generation"), and
(2) "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world" (Matt. 24:3.) As the Disciple's questions were mixed and blended in their thoughts and words, so were Christ's answers also blended--as we have them quoted by
the disciples.

Please excuse my clumsy attempt to preview and revise my previous post!
The 2nd one is the corrected one!

I am not sure what biblical basis these guys find for predicting dates for the Lord's return. Did not Jesus say that no one knows the day nor the hour but only the Father in heaven? Further, did not Jesus instruct His disciples that their emphasis should be evangelism and not His second coming (Acts 1:7)? Jesus will return (Acts 1:11) but our focus should be on Him and making disciples (Matthew 28:19-20; Hebrews 12:1-2) and not on setting dates. Gates will fade as do all date setters.

it's ironic he (gates) says, "no one knows the day or the hour," yet he says this after saying "...by no later than 2031" Jesus will come.

"Or in our case, to persuade people to relinquish their assets for the sake of saving more souls."

Gee, that sounds absolutely horrible. What are these guys thinking?

I just ran into this page today, and really appreciate the comments and opinions on both sides of the issue. It was an education for me and helps me maintain a balance. Thanks.
From the front lines,
David Gates

What part of a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation do you SDAs not understand?

First I have to defend vegetarianism to you, even though you're in the Blue Zone, now you don't even believe the book of Daniel, even though your prophet explained it to you.

Honestly, I think the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

If you want to win me back to The Truth, what "truth" are you thinking of?

Maggie, I think you're on to something! What part of the prophet don't you believe? ;-)

My oldest son, David Gates, just found this page and asked me to look at it. I am Pastor Richard Gates, RN, Retired from GC Mission Aviation in Bolivia and Peru. It was in the jungles there that we reared our 4 children.

The distortions in the letters exchanged here are so obvious to me, an insider, and active board member of GMI, Gospel Ministries International, that I must clarify. God is my witness of what I am about to say, I will answer to Him soon.
I have just made a very, very serious statement, an oath.

David and I together started GMI years ago. I functioned as Treasurer for a number of years, and my knowledge of the economics of GMI is from personal experience.

Years ago the board voted to give David and Becky a stipend of $500 (Five Hundred) per month. That has never been changed, or increased. His travel expenses are covered by GMI. Becky works as an RN to supplement their personal income.

After about 15 years on denominational salary, with 5 children (3 adopted overseas) by personal choice, David refused (refused) to accept compensation from the Church. His resignation was accepted under protest, but the arrangement still stands.

At the present time, April, 2010, David is Associate ADRA Director and Associate Communications Director for the Venezuelan Union.

This position he has held for years, but because of recent international political problems, well know to most North Americans, he has been requested to withdraw to eliminate pressure on the Union from the government. However, the position is technically still in force.

Most of the communications available on the website are old, having been posted in mid to late 2008. Unfortunately the criticisms I am answering will probably not be read by those who wrote them.

David and Becky have no home, anywhere. They own two cars that have been given them, and a few acres here on the property where I reside in Southern Illinois. Years ago they dug footings and poured concrete in them, but that is as close as they ever got to having their own place. They are really "pilgrims and strangers", their personal sacrifices to practice what they preach are clear to those of us who know them well.

There is no big "compensation" package as imagined by several writers. Even the "multi-million dollar" operation David directs can only be valued as such because of inflation and market prices, certainly not because of what is invested in the many TV stations owned and operated by GMI.

My wife and I have taken every cent of our retirement funds and invested them in TV stations in the jungles of Bolivia. The last 3 years we spent 3 months each winter building and buying equipment to operate them till the funds were all gone.

Our motive is the same one David & Becky have. We cannot hold resources for a comfortable retirement when millions need to know that Jesus is coming back soon, and what they must do to be ready.

Our conviction is that any other arrangement would be derelict on our part. We, and David, do not prescribe for others in this matter, only encourage each to take the issue to the Lord. Personal testimony helps, but each one must decide alone and prayerfully what God asks.

A reference to 2031 as an outside limit must have been made during a message. I know David's theology, and he is NOT setting a time for Jesus to come, rather expressing his opinion, as I do when I say that time can't last much longer.
Critics seems to miss that point, and one even mentioned 1000 years as a possibility for His return. That too could be called time setting. I don't think the writer so intended it, and I dare say, neither did David in reference to 2031.

So...that's my insider viewpoint. I only wish everyone who responded could read this, but they've probably gone on to greater and better things !

Richard Gates

Elaine, this is very complex. Obviously, you and I will never go back to old timey SDA beliefs.

However, speaking for myself, I believe there are key seed ideas in Adventism that could be (could have been) developed that would be pivotal in benefiting the world.

I'm tempted to believe it's too late for that now. Adventists are too divided to be effective at anything now, it seems to me, and there's no time to get it together.

Given the world situation, the Gates family passion is well-placed, I would say, and I applaud it.

Sadly, I cannot feel moved to support a "message" that is stagnant and outdated, and basically wasted, it seems to me.

It is encouraging to see that other people have not bought into the David Gates’ eschatological hysteria - actions and methods that are categorically condemned by the (true) Spirit of Prophecy.

I have found that the best way to expose such falsities and presumptuousness is to confront them with hard facts and the non-fulfilment of their predicted events. (cf. Deut 18:22). The following blog post gives such factual rebuttals for many of Gates major statements:

Theological Views: The Ministry of David Gates

[ http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/11/ministry-of-david-gates.html ]

That blog post also discusses Gate’s famous “Lazarus Experience” from a more in depth Biblical/SOP perspective in order to arrive at its probable intended meaning and purpose.

NJK Project

Just a quick reply to the statements above of defence/clarification by David Gates’s father, Richard Gates. First of all, Jesus clearly speaks against making any kind of oath (Matt 5:33-37). And that includes effectively ‘committing Eternal suicide’ by taking a lie to one’s grave. Such a trifling, brash affront of God’s demonstrated infinite mercy in wanting to save us from our sins probably does not go unnoticed by the Heavenly Intelligence. The, mostly, factual clarifications made there by Richard gates simply required straightforward statements and “nothing more” (vs. 37).

In regards to David Gates’ 2031 statement which he definitely, repeatedly, did make and probably still does, as the saying goes: “two wrongs do not make a right” so trying to justify this actually precise year dating with a more general, symbolic statement of “1000 years” does justify Gates’s time setting. The SOP clearly speaks against making any such time setting.

God is not dependent on any time, nor will he allow this earth’s vital natural or geo-political systems to self-destruct before His commissioned work on it is fully and properly accomplished (Rev 7:1-3), especially from the man-made reasons that David Gates greatly depends upon (namely the economy, war, terrorism). Claiming that the Second Coming must occur by a certain year because many of these systems are sure to collapse is actually expressing a distrust of God’s Word, Wisdom, and Sovereign and Overwhelming Power. (Dan 2:21)

http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/12/endtime-reality-check.html

Even “calamities” such as lack of potable/fresh water, hunger, sickness, etc could all be resolved if man was not so solely concerned and obsessed with “making a profit.” Why should God doom billions of people to hell fire and Eternal Death, through a premature “end”, because of such man-sustained problems. Unfortunately this quite capable, and equipped Church does not want to step in and “Show the World” the practical power of God’s Word, for they too are just as worshipful of these man-made methods and institutions.

http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/10/church-triumphant.html

More info on these issues at http://njkproject.blogspot.com/

NJK Project

I have met David Gates on a number of occasions, heard his teachings on CD/DVD and I can say this.
David is NOT a man of fear! He NEVER encourages people to consider mission or giving out of FEAR because that is not in his vocabulary.
He ALWAYS comes at situations from a position of faith to see what God would have him do with the opportunity.

Kevin,

Interesting take on these sermons, however one does not need to explicitly say "FEAR" in order to instill and project a feeling of FEAR, especially when Imminent, Out-of-Control, Total Doom is the pervasively used mantra.

David Gates should rather keep his message on the self-sacrificing love that the Church should have towards those in need and the unsaved, and not use any of his irrational, coercive, by definition, "scare" tactics.

NJK PROJECT

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Adamah Republic © 5930± 03 16 2026

To answer your question, Toby, that is, "What do we have to fear?"

Well, not only do we have to fear our own fears, but, more importantly, we have to fear the consequences of willingly remaining in the dark when, choosing to hide from the bright light of God's ever expanding truths, we follow our own fears while choosing to remain ignorant of the details of our own errors when being offered specific correction upon a more solidly anchored truth than that which was available to us heretofore...

That was a mouthful, wasn't it?! Let me see if I cannot rephrase my answer to make the obvious stand out just a little bit more clearly:

It is only too easy to be expedient, to lay low with our secret insights into important but unpopular truths re what may seem to be unimportant details of our ways of thinking and doing things. For instance re the astronomically based dates associated with the New Testament events. Like King Saul (1 Samuel 13:8-9,) we too may be afraid of losing either our followers or our pay check. That fear is holding us back from even pursuing plain and simple truths being attractively served on a silver platter. Thus, we remain in the dark forever... In effect we are refusing to open the door for the one Daniel's Messiah that is standing at our door knocking, that is, per Revelation 3:20.

Perhaps I may even return your own question only very slightly modified:

What do we have to fear? That is, by opening each our doors to the true and correct astronomically based dates pertaining to the New Testament events generally, to the crucifixion and the resurrection events specifically, and as well, to the fulfillments of Daniel's prophecies in particular? Or even by focusing our attention upon the ultimate error of our collective amnesia re the true and real timing of ancient chronology?

Happy Sabbath and may the peace of God remain over each our families and homes forever,

Gunnar Anders Smårs Jr © MD

PS. Please notice the links for pertinent details in support of the highlighted words!

PS2. Is it still true that we that claim to be true Seventh-day Adventists are standing solidly on that platform known as Sola Scriptura, that is, upon "the Bible and the Bible alone?" Or, are we stealthily being conformed into merely another branch of Roman Catholicism in that we are placing yesteryears 'present truth' and a SDA version of traditional teaching, over and above the original Holy Scriptures as given to each of us by the Creator of the Universe?

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