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Created 5941[(?)]10 28 2027 [2011-02-03]

Last edited 5941[(?)]10 28 2027 [2011-02-03]

 

 

 

 

 

Thucydides’ solar eclipse:

What time of the day is Thucydides referencing?

What’s the meaning of his words “μετ μεσημβρίαν?

Is “after noon” necessarily the one correct translation?

 

Abstract:

The one and only solar eclipse within 100 years, before and after 431 BCE (which is the commonly assigned date of this eclipse, but which 431 BCE eclipse does not fit the original historical record,) which perfectly fits the historical records of Thucydides and Plutarch is the solar eclipse of 402 BCE, that is with one possible exception: Thucydides is using the words “μετ μεσημβρίαν,” which words are generally translated “afternoon.” So where is the error? The NASA descriptions of these solar eclipses can hardly be questioned in most any detail. I doubt that Thucydides’ original words, as written in the original Greek language, should be questioned. What remains then is my own understanding of those words of Thucydides…

Reviewing some of the best available pertinent word studies re both of those Greek words I find that “μετ” means “amid, among, after” and that “μεσημβρίαν” means “mid-day, noon,” but is also a word being used in reference to the hot portion of the day in a wider sense, e.g. siesta time, and which is also frequently translated “south.”

Thus I find that so far as this sentence of Thucydides is concerned, said words must, in consequence of the astronomical facts of the matter, be translated by words to the effect “during the heat of the day” or possibly “after the day began to grow hot.”

I see no other reasonable solution to this apparent dilemma, and I believe this may constitute powerful evidence in favor of revising the commonly held placement in time of the Peloponnesian war accordingly…

 

 

 

 

Thuc. 2.28

το δ ατο θέρους νουμηνί κατ σελήνην, σπερ κα μόνον δοκε εναι γίγνεσθαι δυνατόν, λιος ξέλιπε μετ μεσημβρίαν κα πάλιν νεπληρώθη, γενόμενος μηνοειδς κα στέρων τινν κφανέντων.

                                                                                                                                                        amid, among, after  /  mid-day, noon

 

28. During the same summer, at the beginning of the lunar month (apparently the only time when1 such an event is possible), and in the afternoon, there was an eclipse of the sun, which took the form of a crescent, and then became full again; during the eclipse a few stars were visible.

1 Eclipse of the sun.

28.

The same summer, at the beginning of a new lunar month, the only time by the way at which it appears possible, the sun was eclipsed after noon.

After it had assumed the form of a crescent and some of the stars had come out, it returned to its natural shape.

 

 

Aeschylus, Suppliant Women (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph.D.) (Greek) (English, ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph. D.) card 746

Δαναός

πολλος δέ γ ερήσουσιν ν μεσημβρίας θάλπει βραχίον ε κατερρινημένους.

                                            mid-day, noon / warmth, heat

[Χορός]

μόνην δ μ πρόλειπε: λίσσομαι, πάτερ. γυν μονωθεσ οδέν: οκ νεστ ρης.

Danaus
But they will find here a force with arms well-seasoned by the noonday heat.

[Chorus]
Do not leave me forlorn, I implore you, father. A woman abandoned to herself is nothing. There is no Ares in her.

 

 

Act 8:26  And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

Act 8:26  αγγελος δε κυριου ελαλησεν προς φιλιππον λεγων αναστηθι και πορευου κατα μεσημβριαν επι την οδον την καταβαινουσαν απο ιερουσαλημ εις γαζαν αυτη εστιν ερημος

 

 

Josephus, Antiquities 3.144:

Κατ πρόσωπον δ τς τραπέζης τ πρς μεσημβρίαν τετραμμέν τοίχ πλησίον σταται λυχνία κ χρυσο κεχωνευμένη διάκενος σταθμν χουσα μνς κατόν: βραοι μν καλοσι κίγχαρες, ες δ τν λληνικν μεταβαλλόμενον γλτταν σημαίνει τάλαντον.

[144] Over against this table, near the southern wall, was set a candlestick of cast gold, hollow within, being of the weight of one hundred pounds, which the Hebrews call Chinchares ,. if it be turned into the Greek language, it denotes a talent. It was' made with its knops, and lilies, and pomegranates, and bowls (which ornaments amounted to seventy in all); by which means the shaft elevated itself on high from a single base, and spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them. It terminated in seven heads, in one row, all standing parallel to one another; and these branches carried seven lamps, one by one, in imitation of the number of the planets. These lamps looked to the east and to the south, the candlestick being situate obliquely.

 

 

Aristophanes, Birds (ed. F.W. Hall and W.M. Geldart) (Greek) (English, ed. Eugene O'Neill, Jr.) card 1494

Προμηθεύς

πηνίκ στν ρα τς μέρας;

Πισθέταιρος

πηνίκα; σμικρόν τι μετ μεσημβρίαν. λλ σ τίς ε;

Προμηθεύς

βουλυτς περαιτέρω;

unyoking oxen

 

 

Prometheus
What's the time, please?

Pisthetaerus
The time? Why, it's past noon. Who are you?

Prometheus
Is it the fall of day? Is it no later than that?

 

 

(Show lexicon entry in LSJ Middle Liddell Autenrieth) (search)

βου-λυ_τός (βος, λυ?ω): time of unyoking oxen from the plough; έλιος μετενίσσετο βουλυ_τόνδε, began to verge towards eventide, Il. 16.779, Od. 9.58.

 

Notice: It looks to me, based upon the above definition, as though the translation of the word “βουλυτς” hinges on two references only, that is, “Il. 16.779, Od. 9.58.” But studying carefully the first one of those, it seems to me as though the great majority of the action of one day of war activity (cf. text below!) is taking place subsequent to the time referenced by the word “βουλυτς.” Cf. the condensed text below. As to the second reference, I do have a hard time seeing that the translation I am looking at is at all representing the Greek words that are supposedly being translated?

Thus, it seems to me that the word “βουλυτς” or “unyoking oxen” has a quite different meaning than that which is suggested per the dictionary. It seems to me that the time referenced is not evening, but possibly sometime midmorning, possibly referencing a time of day when it is getting too hot to work for men and beast alike, or perhaps the word is even carrying the contrary meaning, that is, ‘the time for yoking oxen?’

 

Homer Iliad 16.779:

φρα μν έλιος μέσον ορανν μφιβεβήκει,
τόφρα μάλ μφοτέρων βέλε πτετο, ππτε δ λαός:
μος δ έλιος μετενίσετο βουλυτν δέ,
780κα τότε δή ῥ᾽ πρ ασαν χαιο φέρτεροι σαν.
κ μν Κεβριόνην βελέων ρωα ρυσσαν
Τρώων ξ νοπς, κα π μων τεύχε λοντο,
Πάτροκλος δ Τρωσ κακ φρονέων νόρουσε.
τρς μν πειτ πόρουσε θο τάλαντος ρηϊ
785σμερδαλέα άχων, τρς δ ννέα φτας πεφνεν.
λλ τε δ τ τέταρτον πέσσυτο δαίμονι σος,
νθ ρα τοι Πάτροκλε φάνη βιότοιο τελευτή:
ντετο γάρ τοι Φοβος ν κρατερ σμίν
δεινός: μν τν όντα κατ κλόνον οκ νόησεν,
790έρι γρ πολλ κεκαλυμμένος ντεβόλησε:
στ δ πιθεν, πλξεν δ μετάφρενον ερέε τ μω
χειρ καταπρηνε, στρεφεδίνηθεν δέ ο σσε.
το δ π μν κρατς κυνέην βάλε Φοβος πόλλων:
δ κυλινδομένη καναχν χε ποσσν φ ππων
795αλπις τρυφάλεια, μιάνθησαν δ θειραι
αματι κα κονίσι: πάρος γε μν ο θέμις εν
ππόκομον πήληκα μιαίνεσθαι κονίσιν,
λλ νδρς θείοιο κάρη χαρίεν τε μέτωπον
ύετ χιλλος: τότε δ Ζες κτορι δκεν
800 κεφαλ φορέειν, σχεδόθεν δέ ο εν λεθρος.
πν δέ ο ν χείρεσσιν γη δολιχόσκιον γχος
βριθ μέγα στιβαρν κεκορυθμένον: ατρ π μων
σπς σν τελαμνι χαμα πέσε τερμιόεσσα.
λσε δέ ο θώρηκα ναξ Δις υἱὸς πόλλων.
805τν δ τη φρένας ελε, λύθεν δ π φαίδιμα γυα,
στ δ ταφών: πιθεν δ μετάφρενον ξέϊ δουρ
μων μεσσηγς σχεδόθεν βάλε Δάρδανος νρ
Πανθοΐδης Εφορβος, ς λικίην κέκαστο
γχεΐ θ πποσύν τε πόδεσσί τε καρπαλίμοισι:
810κα γρ δ τότε φτας είκοσι βσεν φ ππων
πρτ λθν σν χεσφι διδασκόμενος πολέμοιο:
ς τοι πρτος φκε βέλος Πατρόκλεες ππε
οδ δάμασσ: μν ατις νέδραμε, μίκτο δ μίλ,
κ χρος ρπάξας δόρυ μείλινον, οδ πέμεινε
815Πάτροκλον γυμνόν περ όντ ν δηϊοττι.
Πάτροκλος δ θεο πληγ κα δουρ δαμασθες
ψ τάρων ες θνος χάζετο κρ λεείνων.

 

Homer Iliad 16.779:

Now as long as the sun bestrode mid-heaven, so long the missiles of either side reached their mark, and the folk kept falling; but when he turned to the time for the unyoking of oxen, [780] then verily beyond their portion the Achaeans proved the better. Forth from out the range of darts they drew the warrior Cebriones from the battle-din of the Trojans, and stripped the armour from his shoulders; and Patroclus with fell intent leapt upon the Trojans. Thrice then leapt he upon them, the peer of swift Ares, [785] crying a terrible cry, and thrice he slew nine men. But when for the fourth time he rushed on, like a god, then for thee, Patroclus, did the end of life appear; for Phoebus met thee in the fierce conflict, an awful god. And Patroclus marked him not as he passed through the turmuoil, [790] for enfolded in thick mist did he meet him; and Apollo took his stand behind him, and smote his back and broad shoulders with the flat of his hand, and his eyes were made to whirl. And from his head Phoebus Apollo smote the helmet, that rang as it rolled [795] beneath the feet of the horses—the crested helm; and the plumes were befouled with blood and dust. Not until that hour had the gods suffered that helm with plume of horse-hair to be befouled with dust, but ever did it guard the head and comely brow of a godlike man, even of Achilles; but then Zeus vouchsafed it to Hector, [800] to wear upon his head, yet was destruction near at hand for him. And in the hands of Patroclus the far-shadowing spear was wholly broken, the spear, heavy, and huge, and strong, and tipped with bronze; and from his shoulders the tasselled shield with its baldric fell to the ground, and his corselet did Apollo loose—the prince, the son of Zeus. [805] Then blindness seized his mind, and his glorious limbs were loosed beneath him, and he stood in a daze; and from behind him from close at hand a Dardanian smote him upon the back between the shoulders with a cast of his sharp spear, even Panthous' son, Euphorbus, that excelled all men of his years in casting the spear, and in horsemanship, and in speed of foot; and lo, twenty warriors had he already cast [810] from their cars at his first coming with his chariot to learn his lesson of war. He it was that first hurled his spear at thee, knight Patroclus, yet subdued thee not; but he ran back again and mingled with the throng, when he had drawn forth the ashen spear from the flesh, and he abode not [815] Patroclus, unarmed though he was, in the fray. But Patroclus, overcome by the stroke of the god and by the spear, drew back into the throng of his comrades, avoiding fate.

So fought they like unto blazing fire, nor wouldst thou have deemed that sun or moon yet abode, for with darkness were they shrouded in the fight, all the chieftains that stood around the slain son of Menoetius. [370] But the rest of the Trojans and the well-greaved Achaeans fought at their ease under clear air, and over them was spread the piercing brightness of the sun, and on all the earth and the mountains was no cloud seen; and they fought resting themselves at times, avoiding one another's shafts, fraught with groaning, [375] and standing far apart. But those in the midst suffered woes by reason of the darkness and the war, and were sore distressed with the pitiless bronze, even all they that were chieftains. Howbeit two men that were famous warriors, even Thrasymedes and Antilochus, had not yet learned that peerless Patroclus was dead, but deemed that, [380] yet alive, he was fighting with the Trojans in the forefront of the throng. And they twain, watching against the death and rout of their comrades, were warring in a place apart, for thus had Nestor bidden them, when he roused them forth to the battle from the black ships. So then the whole day through raged the great strife [385] of their cruel fray, and with the sweat of toil were the knees and legs and feet of each man beneath him ever ceaselessly bedewed, and his arms and eyes, as the two hosts fought about the goodly squire of swift-footed Achilles. And as when a man [390] giveth to his people the hide of a great bull for stretching, all drenched in fat, and when they have taken it, they stand in a circle and stretch it, and forthwith its moisture goeth forth and the fat entereth in under the tugging of many hands, and all the hide is stretched to the uttermost;1 even so they on this side and on that were haling the corpse hither and thither in scant space; [395] and their hearts within them were full of hope, the Trojans that they might drag him to Ilios, but the Achaeans to the hollow ships; and around him the battle waxed wild, nor could even Ares, rouser of hosts, nor Athene, at sight of that strife have made light thereof, albeit their anger were exceeding great.

[400] Such evil toil of men and horses did Zeus on that day strain taut over Patroclus. Nor as yet did goodly Achilles know aught of Patroclus' death, for afar from the swift ships were they fighting beneath the wall of the Trojans. Wherefore Achilles never deemed in his heart [405] that he was dead, but that he would return alive, after he had reached even to the gates; nor yet thought he this in any wise, that Patroclus would sack the city without him, nay, nor with him, for full often had he heard this from his mother, listening to her privily, whenso she brought him tidings of the purpose of great Zeus. [410] Howbeit then his mother told him not how great an evil had been brought to pass, that his comrade, far the dearest, had been slain. But the others round about the corpse, with sharp spears in their hands, ever pressed on continually, and slew each other. And thus would one of the brazen-coated Achaeans say: [415] “Friends, no fair fame verily were it for us to return back to the hollow ships; nay, even here let the black earth gape for us all. That were for us straightway better far, if we are to yield this man to the Trojans, tamers of horses, to hale to their city, and win them glory.” [420] And thus in like manner would one of the great-hearted Trojans speak: “Friends, though it be our fate all together to be slain beside this man, yet let none give backward from the fight.”

Thus would one speak and arouse the might of each. So they fought on, [425] and the iron din went up through the unresting air to the brazen heaven. But the horses of the son of Aeacus being apart from the battle were weeping, since first they learned that their charioteer had fallen in the dust beneath the hands of man-slaying Hector. In sooth Automedon, valiant son of Diores, [430] full often plied them with blows of the swift lash, and full often with gentle words bespake them, and oft with threatenings; yet neither back to the ships to the broad Hellespont were the twain minded to go, not yet into the battle amid the Achaeans. Nay, as a pillar abideth firm that standeth on the tomb [435] of a dead man or woman, even so abode they immovably with the beauteous car, bowing their heads down to the earth. And hot tears ever flowed from their eyes to the ground, as they wept in longing for their charioteer, and their rich manes were befouled, [440] streaming from beneath the yoke-pad beside the yoke on this aide and on that. And as they mourned, the son of Cronos had sight of them and was touched with pity, and he shook his head, and thus spake unto his own heart: “Ah unhappy pair, wherefore gave we you to king Peleus, to a mortal, while ye are ageless and immortal? [445] Was it that among wretched men ye too should have sorrows? For in sooth there is naught, I ween, more miserable than man among all things that breathe and move upon earth. Yet verily not upon you and your car, richly-dight, [450] shall Hector, Priam's son, mount; that will I not suffer. Sufficeth it not that he hath the armour and therewithal vaunteth him vainly? Nay, in your knees and in your heart will I put strength, to the end that ye may also bear Automedon safe out of the war to the hollow ships; for still shall I vouchsafe glory to the Trojans, to slay and slay, until they come to the well-benched ships, [455] and the sun sets and sacred darkness cometh on.”

Then again over Patroclus was strained taut the mighty conflict, dread and fraught with tears, and Athene roused the strife, [545] being come down from heaven; for Zeus, whose voice is borne afar, had sent her to urge on the Danaans, for lo, his mind was turned. As Zeus stretcheth forth for mortals a lurid1 rainbow from out of heaven to be a portent whether of war or of chill storm that [550] maketh men to cease from their work upon the face of the earth, and vexeth the flocks; even so Athene, enwrapping herself in a lurid cloud, entered the throng of the Danaans, and urged on each man. First to hearten him she spake to Atreus' son, valiant Menelaus, for he was nigh to her, [555] likening herself to Phoenix, in form and untiring voice: “To thee, verily, Menelaus, shall there be shame and a hanging of the head, if the trusty comrade of lordly Achilles he torn by swift dogs beneath the wall of the Trojans. Nay, hold thy ground valiantly, and urge on all the host.” [560] Then Menelaus, good at the war-cry, answered her: “Phoenix, old sire, my father of ancient days, would that Athene may give me strength and keep from me the onrush of darts. So should I be full fain to stand by Patroclus' side and succour him; for in sooth his death hath touched me to the heart. [565] Howbeit, Hector hath the dread fury of fire, and ceaseth not to make havoc with the bronze; for it is to him that Zeus vouchsafeth glory.”

Nor were great-hearted Aias and Menelaus unaware how that Zeus was giving to the Trojans victory to turn the tide of battle; and of them great Telamonian Aias was first to speak, saying: “Out upon it, now may any man, how foolish so ever he be, [630] know that father Zeus himself is succouring the Trojans. For the missiles of all of them strike home, whosoever hurleth them, be he brave man or coward: Zeus in any case guideth them all aright; but for us the shafts of every man fall vainly to the ground. Nay, come, let us of ourselves devise the counsel that is best, [635] whereby we may both hale away the corpse, and ourselves return home for the joy of our dear comrades, who methinks are sore distressed as they look hither-ward, and deem that the fury and the irresistible hands of man-slaying Hector will not be stayed, but will fall upon the black ships. [640] But I would there were some comrade to bear word with all speed to the son of Peleus, for methinks he hath not even heard the woeful tale, that his dear comrade is slain. Howbeit, nowhere can I see such a one among the Achaeans, for in darkness are they all enwrapped, themselves and their horses withal. [645] Father Zeus, deliver thou from the darkness the sons of the Achaeans, and make clear sky, and grant us to see with our eyes. In the light do thou e'en slay us, seeing such is thy good pleasure.” So spake he, and the Father had pity on him as he wept, and forthwith scattered the darkness and drave away the mist, [650] and the sun shone forth upon them and all the battle was made plain to view. Then Aias spake unto Menelaus, good at the war-cry: “Look forth now, Menelaus, nurtured of Zeus, if so be thou mayest have sight of Antilochus yet alive, son of great-souled Nestor, and bestir thou him to go with speed unto Achilles, wise of heart, [655] to tell him that his comrade, far the dearest, is slain.”

So spake he, and Menelaus, good at the war-cry, failed not to hearken, but went his way as a lion from a steading when he waxeth weary with vexing dogs and men that suffer him not to seize the fattest of the herd, [660] watching the whole night through; but he in his lust for flesh goeth straight on, yet accomplisheth naught thereby, for thick the darts fly to meet him, hurled by bold hands, and blazing brands withal, before which he quaileth, how eager soever he be, and at dawn he departeth with sure heart; [665] even so from Patroclus departed Menelaus, good at the war-cry, sorely against his will; for exceedingly did he fear lest the Achaeans in sorry rout should leave him to be a prey to the foemen. And many a charge laid he on Meriones and the Aiantes, saying: “Ye Aiantes twain, leaders of the Argives, and thou, Meriones, [670] now let each man remember the kindliness of hapless Patroclus; for to all was he ever gentle while yet he lived, but now death and fate have come upon him.” So saying fair-haired Menelaus departed, glancing warily on every side as an eagle, which, men say, hath [675] the keenest sight of all winged things under heaven, of whom, though he be on high, the swift-footed hare is not unseen as he croucheth beneath a leafy bush, but the eagle swoopeth upon him and forthwith seizeth him, and robbeth him of life. Even so then, Menelaus, nurtured of Zeus, did thy bright eyes [680] range everywhither over the throng of thy many comrades, if so be they niight have sight of Nestor's son yet alive. Him he marked full quickly on the left of the whole battle, heartening his comrades and urging them on to fight. And drawing nigh fair-haired Menelaus spake to him, saying: [685] “Antilochus, up, come hither, thou nurtured of Zeus, that thou mayest learn woeful tidings, such as I would had never been. Even now, I ween, thou knowest, for thine eyes behold it, how that a god rolleth ruin upon the Danaans, and that victory is with the men of Troy. And slain is the best man of the Achaeans, [690] even Patroclus, and great longing for him is wrought for the Danaans. But do thou with speed run to the ships of the Achaeans and bear word unto Achilles, in hope that he may forthwith bring safe to his ship the corpse—the naked corpse; but his armour is held by Hector of the flashing helm.”

[735] Thus the twain were hasting to bear the corpse forth from out the battle to the hollow ships, and against them was strained a conflict fierce as fire that, rushing upon a city of men with sudden onset, setteth it aflame, and houses fall amid the mighty glare, and the might of the wind driveth it roaring on. [740] Even so against them as they went came ever the ceaseless din of chariots and of spearmen. But as mules that, putting forth on either side their great strength, drag forth from the mountain down a rugged path a beam haply, or a great ship-timber, and within them their hearts [745] as they strive are distressed with toil alike and sweat; even so these hasted to bear forth the corpse. And behind them the twain Aiantes held back the foe, as a ridge holdeth back a flood [750] —some wooded ridge that chanceth to lie all athwart a plain and that holdeth back even the dread streams of mighty rivers, and forthwith turneth the current of them all to wander over the plain, neither doth the might of their flood avail to break through it; even so the twain Aiantes ever kept back the battle of the Trojans, but these ever followed after and two among them above all others, even Aeneas, Anchises' son, and glorious Hector. [755] And as flieth a cloud of starlings or of daws, shrieking cries of doom, when they see coming upon them a falcon that beareth death unto small birds; so before Aeneas and Hector fled the youths of the Achaeans, shrieking cries of doom, and forgat all fighting. [760] And fair arms full many fell around and about the trench as the Danaans fled; but there was no ceasing from war.

[1] So fought they like unto blazing fire, but Antilochus, swift of foot, came to bear tidings to Achilles. Him he found in front of his ships with upright horns,1 boding in his heart the thing that even now was brought to pass; [5] and sore troubled he spake unto his own great-hearted spirit: “Ah, woe is me, how is it that again the long-haired Achaeans are being driven toward the ships in rout over the plain? Let it not be that the gods have brought to pass grievous woes for my soul, even as on a time my mother declared unto me, and said that [10] while yet I lived the best man of the Myrmidons should leave the light of the sun beneath the hands of the Trojans! in good sooth the valiant son of Menoetius must now, be dead, foolhardy one. Surely I bade him come back again to the ships when he had thrust off the consuming fire, and not to fight amain with Hector.” [15] While he pondered thus in mind and heart, there drew nigh unto him the son of lordly Nestor, shedding hot tears, and spake the grievous tidings: “Woe is me, thou son of wise-hearted Peleus, full grievous is the tidings thou must hear, such as I would had never been. [20] Low lies Patroclus, and around his corpse are they fighting—his naked corpse; but his armour is held by Hector of the flashing helm.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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