Jonathan: “Dad, where are we going?”
Father: “Son, we’re going to the Johnsons’ house.”
Jonathan: “What? Why aren’t we going to church?”
Father: “We are, Jonathan. We’re going to church at the Johnsons’ today.”1
Jonathan: “But why, Dad? Why aren’t we going to the same church where we’ve always gone?”
Father: “It’s closed today, Son. They will be having services there tomorrow, on Sunday.”
Could such a scenario actually take place for Adventist believers? Believe it or not, this is the very situation now confronting many Seventh-day Adventist believers in the independent state of Samoa. How did such a state of affairs ever come about? Well, it all revolves around an imaginary boundary commonly known as the “international date line.”
What is the international date line, and how does it affect Sabbath keepers?
Of course, most people are aware that there is such a line, roughly following 180 degrees longitude, where on one side of the line it is considered to be one day, while on the other side it is already the next day. When you really stop and think about it, you realize that some such line, though necessarily arbitrary in nature, must exist somewhere on the globe if there is to be any kind of uniformity in determining what day it is at any given time and place.
How is the “international date line” determined? Is there some kind of international treaty in place?
Interestingly enough, there is not. The “line,” as we call it, is the result of the collective decisions of the various governmental jurisdictions of the world. There is sufficient agreement among these various entities to form a somewhat convoluted line, but which can nevertheless be drawn on a map.
What theory or convention is being followed, in order to achieve this degree of uniformity?
Well, I find that it is commonly believed, among both the religious and the secular, that Mesopotamia is the cradle of civilization. That’s also where the Garden of Eden is considered to have been. So, it would stand to reason that any date line should be somewhere close to halfway around the world from that location. However, the actual international convention for keeping time is a mean time based at an observatory in Greenwich, England. Apparently, this came about just because the English were the first to exert a sufficient global influence. This is what defines 180 degrees longitude, a line which the various governments may or may not follow exactly.
Sabbath keepers have generally not questioned such decisions made by government. However, things can get interesting when one government or another decides to make a change. One could say that the people of any given country used to consider themselves to be in the Far West of the world, but now they will be in the Far East – or vice versa. Independent Samoa (as opposed to American Samoa) is not the first country to make such a change. Many such revisions have been made, from time to time, among the islands of the Pacific. At one time, the date line ran to the east of Alaska. Again, it once ran to the west of the Philippines. In 1892, Samoa made a change. In 2011, the government of independent Samoa decided to reverse the previous move.
All of this begs the question: The Sabbath is holy time. Does any government really have the right to make a decision affecting the observance of God’s holy Sabbath day? We read the following in Genesis 2:3 (NKJV):
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
What is the meaning of the Sabbath blessing of Genesis 2:3?
Here, one is faced with a deeper question. In blessing the seventh day, was God infusing the day itself with a special quality, or was He rather promising to bless those who would observe the seventh day in obedience and sincerity of purpose? The former seems to be an appealing concept to many, but just how is one to picture this in one’s mind? Did this blessing commence in Mesopotamia, spreading at a uniform rate of speed around the circumference of the earth, until it bumped into itself at a line exactly equidistant from its origin? If this were the case, it seems to me that the Sabbath blessing could only be realized by celebrating the day according to an exact comparison of the distance from where one is to the longitude of where the Garden of Eden was, by going either eastward or westward.
What would be the implications of such an approach? Well, for one thing, all generally accepted ideas of what day it is, at any given location, would have to be ignored. From sunset to sunset, one would necessarily end up observing the Sabbath on what the general public is calling Friday, or Saturday, or Sunday! In addition, we Sabbath keepers would have to draw our own Sabbath-keeping “date line,” running straight north and south, and dividing continents, countries, states or provinces, and perhaps even local communities. I write from British Columbia, and I realize that this line would necessarily run somewhere between here and Alaska. Can anyone really believe that this is the way God wants us to honour His holy day? The world would think we were crazy!
Therefore, I cannot escape the conclusion that the promised Sabbath blessing is bestowed on the basis of our willingness to obey and our sincerity of purpose. Hence, I believe that we need to follow the principles of Romans 13, going along with the government as long as they are not asking us to do anything wrong. In a location roughly halfway around the world from the cradle of civilization, could anyone seriously suggest that there are any moral implications (of right and wrong) involved in the decision of whether to consider one’s country to be in the Far West verses the Far East? I think not.
The Samoan Sabbath Dilemma
So, what has actually happened in Samoa, anyway? Following Thursday, December 29, 2011, the independent state of Samoa skipped Friday the 30th and moved directly into Saturday, December 31. The result is that, in this location, what would have been called Saturday, had the change not been enacted, will now be called Sunday. The Samoan government has cited a number of economic and logistical reasons for making the change, but it seems to have thrown the local Sabbath keepers into confusion.
The Seventh-day Adventist church in independent Samoa is administered by the Samoa-Tokelau Mission. The Mission administration, after considering the matter, had decided to begin observing Sunday (from sunset to sunset, of course) as the Sabbath. Their stated purpose was to continue observing every seventh day as the Sabbath, regardless of what the general public might call it.2 According to one news article, Samoan S.D.A. ministers were brought in from other countries.3 These visiting ministers made a presentation, advising the Samoa Mission administration against the decision which they had made – but to no avail. The local leaders were well-intentioned, no doubt, but they could not be persuaded to change their purpose.
The leadership of the Samatau S.D.A. church has decided to continue observing Saturday as the Sabbath. Within the rest of the Samoa Mission, on the other hand, there are many families and individuals who cannot conscientiously go along with the decision of the church leadership to observe what is now Sunday. Thus, confusion has been the result.
It has been urged by some that there may be cultural issues involved, of which we may be unaware. It has been said that this problem needs to be sorted out locally. I can certainly agree that a local solution would be ideal, and I share the hope that this will be achieved over time. Meanwhile, can we leave our Samoan brothers and sisters, who find that they cannot go along with the decision of their church leaders, to struggle along as best they can without any indication of support from the rest of us in the world church?
I hope and pray that they will find this article here, and that they will know that there are others who understand their plight.
————————
This post was edited on 2 February, 2012 to correct two factual errors regarding the Samatau SDA Church.
No related posts.
The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
Thus a day begins in the east.
The Biblical world sees the lands east of Jerusalem as the east.
The lands west of Jerusalem are to the west.
Thus the Sabbath first dawns in the eastern countries of Japan, China and all the lands in line with them like Australia and New Zealand — it moves over the Asian continent, into Europe and on to the western continent of the Americas.
The Sabbath day Saturday is fixed in all the world — it’s not a matter of any government changing the day or the name.
The only question that arises is in these little Islands in the Pacific which must decide whether they belong to the east to welcome the Sabbath first along with Australia, Japan and New Zealand, or whether they belong to the west and celebrate it last with western America.
It seems those who want to keep the Sabbath Saturday in Samoan are going to be persecuted by their Sunday keeping brethren. My prayers are with those who refuse to keep Sunday.
In NZ and Australia, and every other country Sunday is the ist day of the week. In Western Samoa now, because they have dropped a day, Sunday is now the 7th Day of the week. In The 4th Commandment The Lord asks us to keep the 7th day holy, He didn’t give it a name. So Western Samoa is correct in worshiping on the 7th day which is now called Sunday. The Sabbath keepers haven’t moved, but the Sunday keepers now have a problem as one of their arguments for keeping Sunday is in honour of the resurrection of Jesus on the 1st day of the week.
Noeline, that is not correct. Sunday is not the seventh day of the week. Never has been. Never will be. Sabbath is always between Friday and Sunday. The Bible says so. The “dropping of a day” is an illusion, but a necessary one. Samoa is simply moving from the western side of the day to the eastern. Every day takes 48 hours for everyone in the world to observe it.
R.G> I don’t get it… The government changed the calendar to skip over Thursday, so the week in question went from Wednesday to Friday. They didn’t skip over the Sabbath so why isn’t the Samatsu SDA Church keeping the sabbath instead of Sunday? That’s crazy! They should accept the government’s decision, enjoy the short week in December and move out with the usual 7th day Sabbath.
I may be slow but this is my take on it. If the government said the week begins on a Monday, making Sunday the 7th day, are you saying we should obey and rest on Sunday according to the law of the land?
It does not matter what changes the government makes – we should obey God.
Now with this Samoan issue, it is just as if the government makes Monday the 1st day of the week. I agree with the brethren who decided to still follow the 7 day week cycle as we know it.
I beg to ask the question, if an employer gives Thursday and Friday as the weekend days, would you Mr. White, go to work on Saturday as a regular work day? Something to think about.
The issue of the date line is not the same as the government simply deciding to rename the days or say that there is a different order. The days are being referenced in exactly the same order as before, and are actually in harmony with other countries that are nearby. If the consistency of the 7-day cycle is of utmost importance, then how does one reconcile the clear difference of days being observed by SDA members in NZ vs Samoa? Are the folks in NZ also wrong?
Additionally, there has been quite a lot of discussion about the unbroken 7-day cycle, but as has recently been pointed out, there have been two changes to the date line for Samoa, yet only one appears to be deemed “bad”. Given the fact that the dateline was changed twice, but there has only been resistance to one of these changes, only one of the following conclusions can be correct:
A – The week, as outlined by the Samoan government is now correct and back in cycle with the pre-1892 week, and was thus wrong for 120 years.
B – The week, as outlined by the Samoan government is current wrong, was correct for the past 120 years, but was wrong prior to 1892.
Somehow, as I look at this situation, two thoughts come to mind:
1st thought: Ezekiel 8:16
2nd thought: This issue will likely obtain even more publicity soon, and might be God’s instrument of shaking up His church. This is not a regional or local issue by any stretch of the imagination.
-ASB
Dear Juliet,
Andrew has more or less answered for me. The Samoa government was choosing between two alternative weekly cycles — the Asian week and the American week, each of which can be traced back to Creation Week in an unbroken cycle, but in opposite directions around the globe. This is what I mean by staying “within reason.” Simply calling Sunday the 7th day of the week, in any given country, with Monday as the 1st day, etc., would just be a lie.
Andrew, Saturday as the Sabbath in Samoa, prior to the 2011 change, was correct and traceable back to creation (to the earthly ministry of Christ, actually, and to creation by implication) by an eastward orientation across the Americas. Saturday as the Sabbath in Samoa, now, is also correct and traceable back to creation by a westward orientation across Asia. Having to do a one-time 6-day week in order to adjust between the two is arguably a technical inconsistency, but in my view it is fully justified on the basis of the teaching of Christ that “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” Local custom, within reason, tells us when the sun sets on the 6th day of the week, and the Sabbath arrives. I believe that God expects us to enter the kingdom of heaven as little children, if we are going to get in at all.
Thank you, John, for sharing your perspective. It is true that the Sunday keeping position is based on a theory, which has already been thoroughly explained by its proponents on this blog. Perhaps you will not be quite so shocked and surprised at what is happening, if you meditate on the words of Christ as recorded in Matthew 11:25-26.
Please allow me to correct a couple of your evident misconceptions concerning the facts. The government actually skipped over Friday, a minor difference IMO. This means that, in their one-off six-day week, the Sabbath keepers would have had to begin their Sabbath observance at sunset on Thursday evening, since the next day was Saturday. I doubt that you would see this as a problem.
You may be surprised to understand that it is the entire Samoa-Tokelau Mission whose leadership has chosen to implement the Sunday theory. Not counting Samoa’s “independent Seventh-day Adventists,” there are only two groups still meeting on Saturday morning in the independent state of Samoa. One is the Samatau SDA Church. The other is the Lighthouse group, meeting on Mt. Vaea, and consisting of members (former attendees) of a number of Adventist churches, principally the English-speaking Emmanuel Church. These other SDA churches are now meeting on Sunday.
I am confident that God is still in control, and that all will unfold according to His unsearchable wisdom.
This article was written by Dr Barry Oliver, the current president of the South Pacific Division.
It can be found in the “RECORD”, the official news magazine of the South Pacific Division of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Vol 117 No2 February 4th 2012
http://www.record.net.au
It seems to me that the Samoan mission wasn’t making this decision alone?
Government changes calendar:
Adventists Respond
What would you do if it was legislated that this coming Friday was going to be named Saturday and this coming Saturday was going to be named Sunday? Which day would you honour as the Sabbath of the Lord?
Almost everyone reading these words will be saying to themselves that this is a hypothetical question which they will never have to worry about in reality. But for some, the question is not hypothetical at all. The situation I have just described is exactly what has just occurred in Samoa. At the end of 2011, Friday, December 30, was legislated out of existence. The sixth day of that week was called “Saturday” and the seventh day was called “Sunday”. And so it continues.
The observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath of the Lord is of vital importance for Seventh-day Adventists. We do not worship on the Sabbath because it is called “Saturday”. We worship on the Sabbath because it is the “seventh day”. It is holy time set aside and sanctified by God from the time of creation. The first of the three angels’ messages affirms that its sacredness is to be heralded by the people of God at the very end of time. We have always been very particular about Sabbath worship. We have insisted that loyalty to God involves loyalty to His command to “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy”. And we have consistently said that we follow the Lord when He determined that “the seventh day is the Sabbath” (Exodus 20:8-11).
In anticipation of the change in the names of the days in the weekly cycle, the executive committee and administration of the Samoas—Tokelau Mission spent a considerable amount of time planning for its consequences. They considered the importance of the biblical Sabbath for Seventhday Adventists and that it is essential that the seventh day Sabbath be preserved. They studied the historical, geographical and political data with respect to the determination of the International Date Line, the impact of the change on our Church in Samoa and of the choice which had to be made. They consulted widely with the church membership in Samoa and sought counsel from the Trans- Pacific Union and the South Pacific Division.
Because our Church has consistently held that human agencies do not have the prerogative to arbitrarily change the Sabbath, and because the seventh-day in Samoa is now called Sunday, our Church is worshipping on a day which is no longer called “Saturday”. It is called “Sunday”. Of course, this is cause for pause. And we must admit that there is a level of discomfort because of the name of the day. But nowhere does Scripture use the names of the week that are used today to determine the Sabbath. Sabbath rest is not in Scripture attached to “Saturday”. It is always observed on the “seventh day”.
The issue has been carefully studied by the Biblical Research Committee of the South Pacific Division. Over a five year period the issue was researched comprehensively, especially in relation to the situation in Tonga where a similar practice has been followed for many years after that nation also skipped a day of the week in order to align its calendar with New Zealand, Australia and Asia. More recently, the same predicament has been recognised in Wallis and Futuna, and parts of Kiribati. The Biblical Research Committee of the Division and the General Conference have endorsed the practice of our Church in these island nations that find themselves in a unique situation with respect to the date line. The executive committee of the South Pacific has adopted a position statement in support of those who are facing this difficult decision. The statement, together with extensive study resources on the subject, may be accessed at . http://adventist.org.au/samoa-dateline-change-2011
We understand that it may take a little time for our church members to adjust to this situation. The Church must show grace toward those who may see the situation differently. But while there may be some ambiguity in the mind of some as they consider issues around the location of the International Date Line, it is hoped that unity in thought and practice will emerge fully in our Church in Samoa. God has a great work for us to do in Samoa and we will accomplish that as we move forward together.
God bless
This is actually good now the Sunday worshippers will actually worship on the true sabbath instead!
Hi Brendon,
How can it be a true Sabbath when it is a Sunday? When the SDAs go to church on the same day with the rest of the other church goers, should that not make some bells ring and know they are worshiping on the first day of the week? Does that mean that all the other non SDA churches in Samoa now keep the “Sabbath”? Could the mission not see the confusion claiming to keep the Sabbath on Sunday when everyone else goes to church on Sunday, thus making it easy for the non Sabbath keepers to convert the SDAs from Sabbath keeping to Sunday keeping? I see this has affected evangelism. But we are still praying.
Brendan, why would that be good? Salvation by works or by default? In fact the Adventists are now worshipping on Sunday. Who would have thought?
Dear Viliami,
Dr Barry Oliver refers to “the situation in Tonga where a similar practice has been followed for many years after that nation also skipped a day of the week in order to align its calendar with New Zealand, Australia and Asia.”
That is different from everything I have read on the subject, and I would appreciate your pointing me to documentation that Tonga skipped a day of the week in order to align its calendar with New Zealand.
As I understand it, “the first resident Adventist missionaries, Pastor Edward Hilliard, his wife Ida, and two-year old daughter Alta, arrived in Tonga on August 30, 1895.” They apparently felt that the Tongan week was “wrong” and decided that the Tongan Sunday was really the seventh day of the week. Thus they established Sabbath keeping on Sunday. See Tonga & Niue”
I have spent a great deal of time researching this matter, but I cannot find any evidence that Tonga moved across the IDL either before or after this date. So I would really appreciate some help on this matter. Perhaps you have access to better resources.
Dear Inge, I cannot answer for Barry Oliver. But please don’t forget the big picture from this article?
1. Samoa Mission (Sabbath that coincide with Sunday) has support from the South Pacific Division
2. I am assuming SM has the support of the GC?
3. The issue has been carefully studied by the Biblical Research Committee of the South Pacific Division over a five year period
4. The executive committee and administration of the Samoas—Tokelau Mission
• Spent a considerable amount of time planning for its consequences
• They considered the importance of the biblical Sabbath for Seventhday Adventists and that it is essential that the seventh day Sabbath be preserved
• They studied the historical, geographical and political data with respect to the determination of the International Date Line, the impact of the change on our Church in Samoa and of the choice which had to be made
• They consulted widely with the church membership in Samoa and sought counsel from the Trans-Pacific Union and the South Pacific Division
God bless
Firstly I would like to point out that when in New Zealand we claim that Gisborne is the first place in the world to see the sun, and then over here in Samoa Falealupo in Savaii claims to be the first point to see the sun. Both are right because the sun rises at around the same time at these two places. The only thing that places Samoa 24 hrs. away from New Zealand is a dateline.
I was here in Samoa when Paul Cavanagh presented the one-sided arguement for Samoans worshipping on Sunday; nobody had any information except what was presented. When Paul was questioned on the dateline his only comment was that “God was a God of order and that HE would have been in control of the dateline.” The reason for Samoa to continue the same day worship into Sunday worship was that this was a carry-on from creation. WHY HAS THIS DECEPTION BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP??
Never was the dateline discussed, nor were the people told that when the dateline was put in place 2 Mondays were added to that week, making it an 8-day week. The devil has been here on earth for 6000 years and I think it would be very unwise to presume that he had nothing to do with traders from America wanting Samoa on their side of the dateline, knowing full well what effects this would bring on the people of Samoa in these end times. The Samoan people are a beautiful people, loyal and so often unquestioning in their obedience of leaders. There are many people staying home and worshiping in their own homes, and a growing group of us who worship every Sabbath. Out of adversity is the kindling of revival. We will never worship on Sunday, even if we are disfellowshiped. We are not allowed to worship in our churches, and we were for a time worshiping at the govt. prayer house. As from next week we will set up a marquee at our property in Tulaele and will continue to worship on the Sabbath.
Thank you Lance for giving us first-hand information about Paul Cavanagh’s one-sided presentation and the nature of the beautiful, loyal people who never question(ed) authority. I am, however, saddened by the fact that you are “not allowed” to worship in “our churches,” surprised that persecution is coming from within. This is in fact Satan’s strategy to disrupt God’s people and prevent the good work from going on, now concentrating on internal disputes. But keep heart and tell the faithful people out there that God is in control, that we are all praying for you for strength to stand firm in spite of all this. I don’t understand how you can be “dis-fellowshiped” for keeping the Sabbath day holy. We pray that God will strengthen you spiritually and enable you to “hold fast” the confession of your hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful – Hebrews 10:23.
Inge,
As I understand it the Tongan Sabbath keeping was established before there was an official dateline. The missionaries came from the West and established Western Sabbath keeping time. A decade later, when the government established the dateline, they decided on the Eastern reckoning of time. Adventists in Tonga did make a mistake sticking with the seven-day-sequence theory, but an understandable one. Why should Samoa be advised to make the same mistake just to save face for Tonga? Will this kind of thing stand up in the judgment? I don’t think so . . .
Dear John,
Thank you for your invaluable contributions to this discussion. Just a couple of clarifications on the historical facts:
1) The only official date line that has ever existed is one determined by the collective local decisions and customs, in the same way as the date line was drawn before it ever became official — no real difference before and after 1884.
2) The Pacific islands — and Tonga in particular — seem to have been without a weekly cycle until the arrival of the first (non-Adventist) missionaries, who established the Asian week there.
3) When the attempt was made, starting in 1884, to encourage a uniform date line, some countries (such as Samoa) changed to the American week, and some (such as Tonga) never did.
4) It seems the first (American) Adventist missionaries to Tonga (late in the 19th century) attempted to establish the American week there. If that’s what they had in mind, however, they did not succeed in changing the local custom. They merely started their Adventist converts off with Sunday as their “7th-day Sabbath.” Understandable? One horrific blunder? This is primarily a conversation about Samoa, not Tonga, so we really can’t address that here.
5) The 1892 decision of Samoa, to change to the American week, does appear to be a recognition of the attempt at a uniform date line. However, the evidence (having Monday, July 4, twice) would seem to suggest that the motives behind the change were far from theoretical.
This is my understanding of the historical facts, from the evidence I’ve seen so far. Anyone is welcome to correct me.
I think they do the right thing by continue with 7 week cycle as they did before! Its part of Satan’s strategy to confuse our brothers and sisters out there.
Two 7th days, 2 Sabbaths, Two 7-day cycles (For SDAs only & not other churches)
This of course leads to 2 different types of SDAs. One group of SDAs follows the name Saturday = Saturday SDAs, and the other group of SDAs follow the number 7.
1. MAN-made 7-day CYCLE
• Sunday = 1st day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Monday = 2nd day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Tuesday = 3rd day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Wednesday = 4th day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Thursday =5th day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Friday = 6th day (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
• Saturday = 7th day = SABBATH (Merriam-Webster dictionary)
R G White already gave us the Merriam-Webster dictionary. “Definition of SATURDAY: the seventh day of the week”
Going to the same Merriam-Webster dictionary for the definition of Sabbath: “Definition of Sabbath: the seventh day of the week observed from Friday evening to Saturday evening as a day of rest and worship by Jews and some Christians”
Note:
a. This 7 day cycle start with Sunday (1st day) and end with Saturday (7th day)
b. There is absolute no link between this Sabbath (Saturday) and the creation week
c. Sabbath follows 7th day which MUST ALWAYS follow the name Saturday
d. There is no verse in the whole bible that support a Friday evening to Saturday evening Sabbath
e. The name Sunday, Monday, Tuesday …..Saturday are man-made and not God-made
f. The word Sunday ….. Saturday (Sabbath) are not even found in the bible at all
g. Days (1, 2, 3 …) is attached/fixed to the man-made names such as Saturday
h. Saturday DOES NOT follow 7th day nor Sabbath
i. This 7th day was made (origin) by humans
2. GOD-made 7-day CYCLE
• 1st day (Gen 1:5)
• 2nd day (Gen 1:8)
• 3rd day (Gen 1:13)
• 4th day (Gen 1:19)
• 5th day (Gen 1:23)
• 6th day (Gen 1:31)
• 7th day ( Gen 2:2,3) = SABBATH
Going to the bible for the definition of Sabbath: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy ….. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God ….. ” Exo 20:8,10
Question: What 7th day or 7-day cycle is this verse talking about?
Answer: “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Exo 20:11
This 7th day (Sabbath) points all the way back to the very beginning of time or creation week when the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is.
Note:
a) This 7-day cycle starts with 1st day and end with 7th day also
b) There’s a link between this 7th day Sabbath with creation week (Gen 2:2,3 & Exo 20:8-11)
c) This 7th day Sabbath is grounded in the bible (Gen 2:2,3 & Exo 20:8-11)
d) This Sabbath doesn’t have a name, only a number (Gen 2:2,3)
e) Sabbath is attached/fixed to the 7th day (Exo 20:8,10)
f) This 7th day is not attached/fixed to Saturday nor any other name of day (Gen 2:2,3)
g) This 7th day was made (origin) by God (Gen 2:2,3)
COMMENT: Clearly, one group of SDAs follow a man-made 7-day cycle or man-made 7th day or man-made Sabbath which is clearly define by the Merriam-Webster dictionary. This 7th day Sabbath is not flexible and must be kept on SATURDAY. Where ever or whenever one finds Saturday, one must keep that day as the Sabbath.
Whereas on the other hand, the other group of SDAs ONLY follows a NUMBER (7). Where ever or whenever one finds this number 7, one must keep that day as the Sabbath. In most countries, this number 7 coincide with the name Saturday but sometimes this number 7 coincide with the name Sunday. Who knows, maybe in the near future this number 7 might coincide with the name Tuesday?
So the big question is “Which 7th day Sabbath are you following?”
God Bless
This 7 day cycle which you keep referring to did not start at creation, it started in the late 1800s when they instigated the dateline, this is the same misrepresentation that keeps being used to confuse and destroy.
FACT
When the dateline was instigated American traders sent a delegation to Samoa asking that it be on the west side of the dateline because of trading purposes. They received a positive response and on the week that the dateline was put in place a 8 day week was observed in Samoa, 2 Mondays were installed in that week. This put Samoa out of line with the roll on creation week and following the date change in December last year would have put Samoa back in line with the creation week.
The same argument above is why we see so many Samoans deceived into worshipping on Sunday and destroying the 3 angel’s message here in the islands. This was all detailed in [a] report and this was given to the mission leaders in November last year and shelved. We only received this [...] report in January after the change of date, and we only got it because it was sent to us from [someone outside the SPD].
This is a confusing issue until all the details are worked out in one’s head, and many a dedicated Samoan that we share the truth with will tell us that the Sabbath has nothing to do with the dateline.
We observe the consequences of the instigation of this new day of worship, we observe many of the youth racing of to play their sports on Saturday, and many now attending cultural events that the seventh day Sabbath kept them from, we are living at the midnight hour in earth’s history and God has to be number one in our lives, the devil is subtle but maybe this is God refining those who are truly open to HIM. Both sides have to evaluate their true connection with Christ and revival is taking place! [Edited 4:00 am GMT Feb 9, 2012 to remove unnecessary details]
Hi Lance, can you clear up a few things? I’m sorry but I didn’t quite get some of the things you are saying.
I understand that you are saying that this year (2012) the Sabbath is on Saturday, but what about last year (2011), was the Sabbath on Saturday as well? Or was it on Friday or Sunday or another day?
God bless.
Dear Latu
If Samoa had such a vigilant church (as it is now) back at the time of the dateline, then our people would have stuck to the 7 day creation cycle, but sadly the church was in its infantcy. And when the early church started worshiping along with America back then and they did actually put themselves out of line with the 7 day cycle from creation. My brother, as I see it, if you claim that Sunday is the Sabbath in the 7 day cycle, your cycle started 120 years ago when a day was added. To observe the 7 day cycle from creation you will have go back 120 years and delete the extra Monday that was put in place at the dateline, when you do this you will find that the seven day cycle from creation does actually fall on Saturday in our modern week!!!
I hope this explains things, God bless
Lance can you put up in a table frame your argument of the 7 Day weekly cycle before the 1892 Day changed and after please?
Hi Boss
I have table frames I can show you, there is a basic principle here. If you ADD a day to a week and then SUBTRACT a day from a week 120 years later you arrive on the same day. But if you ADD a day to a week and then 120 years later you refuse to SUBTRACT a day then you end up keeping that added day.
In the case of the Sabbath which we all hold so dear ADDING a day takes us outside the 7 day creation cycle, and refusing to SUBTRACT a day 120 years later keeps us outside that 7 day creation cycle.
I hope this helps, God bless!
I believe Lance is saying that the 7-day cycle now advocated for reckoning the correct Sabbath began in 1892, not at creation. And it seems to me that he is correct.
The 2011 move of Samoa to the western side of the date line was actually going to back to the original time keeping in Samoa, and it moves Samoa back to keeping Sabbath on the same seventh day that Jesus kept it. (And that would be the modern Saturday.)
Some would then say that Samoa kept the wrong Sabbath for 120 years, but I don’t think that’s right. When Samoa was on the eastern side of the date line, Samoan Adventists kept Sabbath with America, and that was proper. Now that Samoa has moved back to its original side of the date line, it would seem proper to keep Sabbath with Australia, New Zealand, Asia and also Palestine.
It will probably take time to sort these things out, and I pray that the Lord will give our dear brothers and sisters in Samoa the necessary wisdom, and that a genuine revival will continue among all Seventh-day Adventists in Samoa. Such a revival will be recognized by the love members demonstrate to each other and the world, because Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35 NIV)
Thanks Inge, you are saying that Saturday this year (2012) is the Sabbath, and Saturday last year (2011) was also the Sabbath.
You know what? I totally agree with you. This is why.
Week International Date-Line Change:
Creation-Day7 Saturday (man-Day7 [Man-Sabbath]) 24/12/11
Creation-Day1 Sunday (man-Day1) 25/12/11
Creation-Day2 Monday (man-Day2) 26/12/11
Creation-Day3 Tuesday (man-Day3) 27/12/11
Creation-Day4 Wednesday (man-Day4) 28/12/11
Creation-Day5 Thursday (man-Day5) 29/12/11
Creation-Day6 Saturday (man-Day7 [Man- Sabbath]) 31/12/11
Creation-Day7 Sunday (man-Day1) 1/1/12
The Sabbath you are describing matches the man-made Sabbath for the following reasons:
• The name Saturday controls the Sabbath. Where ever and whenever humans move Saturday, the Sabbath MUST follow
• This Sabbath is a servant to the name Saturday (master)
• This weekly cycle can be cut short (6 days) or prolong (8 days) when ever humans (government) desire
• This Sabbath is describe by humans (Merriam-Webster dictionary) as: “seventh day of the week observed from Friday evening to Saturday evening as a day of rest and worship by Jews and some Christians”
• This Sabbath ALWAYS follows the name Saturday. Why? Because humans said so (dictionary)
The Sabbath of the Bible (Genesis) is a different Sabbath altogether from the Sabbath you are describing for the following reasons:
• This 7-days cycle week follow that first week @ creation, with numbers only and no names at all
• In creation week, 1st day is always followed by 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th day, 5th day, 6th day, 7th day. So is it ever since.
• This Sabbath is based on God’s character who “ … is the same yesterday, today, and forever” Heb 13:8
• This 7-days cycle doesn’t slow down for anyone, nor stop for anyone
• This Sabbath ALWAYS follows creation DAY 7. Why? Because God said so Exo 20:8-11
• This Sabbath DOES NOT follow Saturday. Why? Because God said so Exo 20:8-11
God bless
Why do you count Creation days from 1892, rather than before 1891?
Dear Viliami,
I am glad to see such an interesting discussion. I’d also like to address the Sabbath described by Inge, because I feel it is worthy of closer consideration.
I believe you are correct in pointing out that this Sabbath is affected by government decisions, which are human, but I think that you may have missed the true reason why this is so. It’s not because the Sabbath is ruled by specific words or dictionaries. No, it’s because the Sabbath of the Bible (Mark 2) was “made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.”
It was O.K. for David and his men to eat the showbread, contrary to the law, because in God’s wisdom necessity trumps technical correctness. This, according to Jesus, is also why it was O.K. for the disciples to pluck (harvest) grain, rub it (thresh it) in their hands, and eat it on the Sabbath.
This is also why I believe it is O.K. to make adjustments in our Sabbath keeping when government makes a change in the weekly cycle — within reason. So, rather than a focus on the merely technical question of which of the two days traces back to the Sabbath of creation week (each does, in its own way, after all), I’d like to see a discussion of whether the Samoa government’s action to change the weekly cycle was within reason, and whether our observing Sabbath on the generally recognised 7th day of the week, wherever we may happen to be, is really necessary.
Dear Inge, you ask this question “Why do you count Creation days from 1892, rather than before 1891?”
I am going to go even further than 1891. Even to the very beginning of time as recorded in the book of Genesis 1 and 2.
Creation-Day1 Let there be light…
Creation-Day2 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters…
Creation-Day3 Let the dry land appear…
Creation-Day4 Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven…
Creation-Day5 Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature…
Creation-Day6 Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind…
Creation-Day7 ….. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it….
• This weekly cycle continues onward to the time of Noah
• This weekly cycle continues onward to the time of Abraham
• This weekly cycle continues onward thru to Jesus time in Jerusalem
• This 7-day cycle continues onward to the time of Ellen G White
• This 7-day cycle continues onward thru the week that Samoa decided to move the IDL in 1892
Creation-Day6 Saturday (Man-Sabbath) 2/7/1892
Creation-Day7 Sunday (man-Day1) 3/7/1892
Creation-Day1 Monday (man-Day2) 4/7/1892
Creation-Day2 Monday (man-Day2) 4/7/1892
Creation-Day3 Tuesday (man-Day3) 5/7/1892
Creation-Day4 Wednesday (man-Day4) 6/7/1892
Creation-Day5 Thursday (man-Day5) 7/7/1892
Creation-Day6 Friday (man-Day6) 8/7/1892
Creation-Day7 Saturday (Man-Sabbath) 9/7/1892
• This 7-day cycle continues onward to the time of the SDA pioneers and missionaries who first enter Samoa, Tonga, etc
• This 7-day cycle continues onward to 2011
• This 7-day cycle continues onward thru the week that Western Samoa decided to move the IDL (Dec 2011 to Jan 2012).
Creation-Day7 Saturday (Sabbath) 24/12/11
Creation-Day1 Sunday (man-Day1) 25/12/11
Creation-Day2 Monday (man-Day2) 26/12/11
Creation-Day3 Tuesday (man-Day3) 27/12/11
Creation-Day4 Wednesday (man-Day4) 28/12/11
Creation-Day5 Thursday (man-Day5) 29/12/11
Creation-Day6 Saturday (Sabbath) 31/12/11
Creation-Day7 Sunday (man-Day1) 1/1/12
• This 7-day cycle still continues on to today
I hope this answer your question.
Notice how the bible 7-day cycle don’t change? It is so easy to follow, just as easy as counting from 1 to 7.
Also, notice how confusing and complicated the man-made or man-control weekly cycle?
God bless
Dear R G White, thanks for your comment. I hope/believe I have digested it accurately.
You gave some reasons then said “This is also why I believe it is O.K. to make adjustments in our Sabbath keeping when government makes a change in the weekly cycle — within reason.” I am afraid I cannot leave the 7th day of the Bible (creation) to keep the 7th day of man (Saturday) which is now coincide with the 6th day of the bible 7-day cycle.
Diana said it well “Seventh-day Adventists in Samoa (western) have not become Sunday worshipers, they are continuing to worship on the seventh-day Sabbath which currently falls on Sunday”
Diana also said “Man can shift sides (timeline) and shorten weeks, but God’s seventh-day cycle remains forever” It reminds me of Heb 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
God bless
Inge you are wrong if thats how you come up with the 7th day Sabbath is by name Saturday then i see you’re confused. The 7th Day Sabbath in Samoa remains even when day changes are made by different governments. your point is whenever a government come up with a new change of days we followed. Well thats not how Seveth Day Adventist members should do unless we’re Saturday Adventist.
You tell me, howcome Samoa and American Samoa who are in the same location on the world map and you can see American Samoa island from Samoa have different day of worship?
Hi Boss
American Samoa and Samoa have the same day of worship because when the dateline was put in place, they both added a day, this was to put them in line with America. The sun rises in New Zealand and Samoa at exactly the same time every day. The only reason Samoa and American Samoa were 24hrs apart is because at the instigation of the dateline an extra monday was added and that particular week 120 years ago and this week had 8 days. If our church had been established back at the time of the dateline as it is now, I am sure they would have made a stand as they are doing now and would have worshipped on friday, because they wouldnt have wanted to break the 7 day cycle since creation. BUT THEY DID NOT. Instead they went with the govt change of the week (adding one day) and they began a worship outside of the 7 day cycle of creation.
Now the Samoan mission today does not want to change with the dropping of a day (Friday 30th December 2011 my birthday by the way) and so it remains outside the 7 day cycle since creation, and is left worshipping on Sunday.
What is really sad and confusing is that a 8 year task force study could get it so wrong, and bring this division onto the Samoan people. We as Seventh Day Adventists have an eternal message, the 3 angels message is what we are about, we are called to come out of Babylon, in the near future and right now the time is ticking towards the return of our precious Saviour, we need to become immersed in God and not amalgamated with the world and false worship.
Are New Zealand and Australia worshipping outside the 7 day cycle since creation, OBVIOUSLY NOT, so a day added at the dateline instigation put Samoa and western Samoa 24hrs away and worshipping on the next day. The dateline was not God inspired it was put in place because American traders from California sent a delegation to request Samoa and American Samoa to be on their side of the dateline.
God bless you Boss! May he speak to your heart!
My Dear Viliami Latu,
When you say, “This of course leads to 2 different types of SDAs” it sounds like a breakaway from SDAs so as to start your own “type” of SDA? I had never heard of those 2 types until this issue arose. Counting days like that is misleading. It is not about who is right, but what is the right thing to do. Can it be right that a group of Adventists is now cutting itself off and calling themselves (types of SDAs) giving a strange explanation about counting the days? It is not too late to reconsider and rectify the decision made by the SM. No one is going to judge you friends because you came back, in fact we shall all be happy and rejoice together. This new way of counting days is making you more confused. When did you first count the 1st day of the week as day 1 and not Sunday? The whole world follows what you are calling the Man made days, as it is globally known to start the week on Sunday. Is this preparation for the future – for who will ever persecute you when you are already worshiping on the globally accepted first day of the week?
And again, since 1892 experienced two days both called 4th of July, then it is clear that your counting of day 1, day 2, etc. started in 1892, not in Eden. You are giving many Bible verses that we all know but you give them in a misleading context. You know my brother, we are not here to condemn you or point fingers. We cannot understand the complexity and confusion since we are so far away. But we know that the devil is fighting to split the church. I don’t believe in 2 types of SDAs. I believe the Lord will show you the way to go — if you let Him do so. May God guide us all and help you not to be a 2nd type of SDAs. Love you all and praying for us all. [Edited 22:24 GMT to correct the date to 1892]
Dear Rose, I hope all is well in your part of the world? You are lucky because you don’t have to choose which Sabbath day to follow.
But the reality in Western Samoa (Tonga, etc) is; there are 2 Sabbath days, one falls on Saturday and Sunday falls on the other. One follows the name Saturday, and the other follows no name, but a number (7).
It seems to me that you only know of one 7-day cycle? Sunday, Monday, … Saturday. But if we look in the Bible, this 7-day weekly cycle doesn’t appear anywhere. If you believe this 7-day weekly cycle is in the bible, then please feel free to share it with us?
You said “This new way of counting days is making you more confused.”, but I beg to differ. This is the oldest way of counting days in a week. “ ….. and the evening and morning were the first day” Gen 1:5; “ ….. and the evening and the morning were the second day” Gen 1:8; …..
I believe that Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ….. Saturday is rather the new way of counting days in a week. If you still believe that Sunday to Saturday is the old way of counting days, then please show us?
You said “It is not too late to reconsider and rectify the decision made by the SM. No one is going to judge you friends because you came back, in fact we shall all be happy and rejoice together.” And I agree, but you must also consider the possibility of the opposite to be true, don’t you think so?
You also said “You are giving many Bible verses that we all know but you give them in a misleading context.” I cannot change what you are saying, but would you be willing to show us where or how am I misleading you?
God bless
I’m a Samoan who had struggled with this whole issue at least a year before a decision was made. As I asked God to help me understand, the Holy Spirit placed in my mind the thought that it is by God’s wisdom that he did not label the days (Sun – Sat). Instead God simply counted 1 – 7. The problem why there is so much confusion is that people have become accustomed to the Saturday label. God did not say, “Remember Saturday.” He commanded us to “Remember the Sabbath…the seventh-day.” The seventh-day may be labeled Sunday or Wednesday or whatever label, but it is the sabbath as long as it is the seventh-day on God’s weekly cycle. Man can shift sides (timeline) and shorten weeks, but God’s seventh-day cycle remains forever. Some people say we have lost the three angels message in Samoa by shifting to Sunday. I say, we now have more opportunity for people to walk into an Adventist church and to learn the three angels message. With the shift, those who worshiped on the first day are now worshiping on the seventh. Seventh-day Adventists in Samoa (western) have not become Sunday worshipers, they are continuing to worship on the seventh-day Sabbath which currently falls on Sunday.
To Diana and others who are certain that the Sabbath is determined by counting to seven during the week of Samoa’s move to the other side of the date line in 2011, here are a few thoughts:
It seems to me that you believe that the government of Samoa created the correct 7-day cycle back in 1892 when it added another Monday to the week. Could you explain to me why it was all right for a government to add a day to the week in order to move the country to the eastern side of the date line, but it is not all right to subtract a day to move the country back to the original western side of the date line?
Why is it better to count to seven beginning in 1892 than beginning in 1891?
Dear Inge, when the government of Samoa made changes by having 2 Mondays in 1892, the Man made Sabbath (Saturday) after the change fell on the same day as the 7th day of the Bible. In another word, Man-made 7-day cycle was level with Bible 7-day cycle. Please refer to table below
Creation-Day6 Saturday (Man-Sabbath) 2/7/1892
Creation-Day7 Sunday (man-Day1) 3/7/1892
Creation-Day1 Monday (man-Day2) 4/7/1892
Creation-Day2 Monday (man-Day2) 4/7/1892
Creation-Day3 Tuesday (man-Day3) 5/7/1892
Creation-Day4 Wednesday (man-Day4) 6/7/1892
Creation-Day5 Thursday (man-Day5) 7/7/1892
Creation-Day6 Friday (man-Day6) 8/7/1892
Creation-Day7 Saturday (Man-Sabbath) 9/7/1892
The 7-day cycle of the bible never changes from the beginning of time to now. But, the man-made 7-day cycle always changes. Add up all the countries that have change the IDL in the past, times that by the times they have change, and it’s a mess. Compare that to the bible 7-day cycle, which is always in order from 1 to 7, or as Diana puts it “Man can shift sides (timeline) and shorten weeks, but God’s seventh-day cycle remains forever”.
If we look at the table above at the date 2/7/1892, Creation-Day6 (Bible cycle) = Saturday Sabbath (man cycle). Creation-Day6 = Saturday or manmade Sabbath = Sad
If we move down to the bottom date 9/7/1892, Creation-Day7 (Bible Sabbath cycle) = Saturday (Man-Sabbath). Bible Sabbath = Man made Sabbath = Happy
You also ask “Why is it better to count to seven beginning in 1892 than beginning in 1891?” I have already given an answer to that question in my comment above/before, but I can give it again if you want.
God bless
The western calendar now has the week starting with Monday & ending with Sunday. Following the logic presented for those in Samoa worshipping on the 7th day of the week, does that mean we in the western world should now worship on Sunday too – as Sunday is now the 7th day of the week?
Thanks Diana for sharing your experience. It’s interesting how you struggled with this issue for more than a year, but praise God you came out with a much clearer understanding and explanation for the reason of your faith.
You are so true that God did not say, “Remember Saturday.” He commanded us to “Remember the Sabbath…the seventh-day.”, but I am a bid sad that a few of our SDA brothers and sisters are insisting on Remember the SATURDAY SABBATH … the seventh day.
You said “The problem why there is so much confusion is that people have become accustomed to the Saturday label” and I agree.
It is an interesting point you bring forth, “we now have more opportunity for people to walk into an Adventist church and to learn the three angels message”. I hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will give you strength and understanding to share your experience and faith where ever you meet people.
God bless
Bretheren,
a review of the discussion thread will reveal that there is more concern about the “name” of the day that the keeping of the “Sabbath” which falls on a 7 day cycle. Brother Latu expressed it very well. It is not wrong, just different. “ ….. and the evening and morning were the first day” Gen 1:5; “ ….. and the evening and the morning were the second day” Gen 1:8; …..
So why the disagreement or pleading that the Samoan bretheren change a decision as though it was a rash and arbitrary decision and that we who probably have not done so know God’s will better than they.
Will a whole nation be lost because they worship on a day now called Sunday which is actually the 7th day of the week? Absolutely not.
Think about this, did the Catholic or Protestants change their day of worship? No. And why? Because they are focused on a specific day called Sunday so wherever that day falls they will still go to church on Sunday.
We need to first of all be assured that the bretheren did seek the Lord’s guidance through a lot of prayer and study and rest assured that they are following God’s impress in this matter.
Next we need to understand that even though a Government seemed to change “time and law” that God is still in control. Whether we agree or not, whether we like it or not, God can use any situation to His benefit and glory just as He is doing following the change in the week in Tonga. There is now more debate and awareness locally and in the region about the day of worship than there was previously. Can’t we see that God can and is using this opportunity to shakeup and reach many others who before this time would not have even thought about a Sabbbath? My 6 month experience in Tonga did open my eyes and helped me to appreciate the 7 day cycle AND the evangelistic benefits of the change, strange but true. Don’t get me wrong, I questioned a lot as well and prayed about it and received comfort that what was done is correct.
Let us therefore pray that in situations like these that Satan will not succeed in bringing confusion among the local SDA bretheren which to me is more a threat and a danger to the church in Samoa than whether we follow the “Saturday” or a 7 day cycle.
We are in the last days, confusion will abound, let’s pray for strength and wisdom for the leadership to continue to hold fast to principles.
Hi Curt,
Should those that wish to worship on Saturday be allowed to worship in their churches, or should they be disfellowshiped? Should pastors who wish to worship on Saturday lose their jobs? Should this be a choice, or do you think unity is more important than truth?? Why doesn’t the whole church worldwide start worshipping on Sunday? It will give our youths a bit more freedom to play all the sports they are mssing out on. We can keep our faith and be strong in God because the day we choose does not really matter! Sunday laws won’t affect us and we can wait for our Saviour without the hassle of being harassed and persecuted.
Brethren,
If we sincerely believe that God is in control in the affairs of Adventism than the IDL issues in Samoa relating to the keeping of the Seventh day Sabbath will be a non issue! God does not lead an individual or a group of people in isolation of the “body of Christ” the “Church.” God is leading a “remnant” Church to glory, we can trust Him.
The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath in the pacific in islands affected by the IDL is not new for pacific islanders. The IDL in relation to Sabbath keeping has been the serious attention of biblical scholars and Church leaders in the South Pacific Division for many many years now. So, the decision reached regarding which Sabbath should be kept in Samoa after the IDL change was not a decision reached over night.
You may want to glean through the following papers in the South Pacific Division Webpages to understand the reasons why the Adventist Church in the pacific have chosen to remain faithful to the biblical teaching of keeping the 7th day of the week holy. See: http://adventist.org.au/samoa-dateline-change-2011.
While God has given each of us the freedom to choose to follow Him, we however cannot just follow God the way we see fit. God has provided for us a blueprint to follow, His Word. As students of Scripture, Adventists uphold the Bible as our ultimate rule for faith and practice. Hence, when it comes to keeping the “Sabbath,” it is not a matter of keeping a “day” we think best or one that suits our preference. Neither are Adventists to go along with what may appear to be convenient or simply to readjust to an IDL change! The day called “Sabbath” is not of human choosing nor is it a day we may decide upon depending on our preferences or because a government (in this case the Republic of Samoa) has taken the liberty to change the IDL. While the Republic of Samoa has the prerogative to change the IDL, this change has nothing to do with the “Sabbath of Yahweh.” Only God designates “Sabbath” and according to Scripture God Himself set asside the “7th day of the week” in an “unbroken” weekly cycle and called it a day of rest unto Himself (see the creation account in Gen. 1&2).
Friends, let me assure you that we can trust God in this matter. God is still in ultimate control of the remnant Church. He is still using the leadership at the General Conference, the South Pacific Division, and the leaders in the Samoa and Tokelau Mission. It would serve us well to respect the decisions of the Church in Samoa that has been reached through much prayer, study, and consultation.
While some of our SDA members in Samoa may at this time feel uncomfortable with worshipping on the “7th day of the unbroken weekly cycle” in Samoa now called “Sunday,” TIME MAY HEAL THIS SITUATION IF WE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN. At this time, our members in Samoa need our support through prayers. The last thing they need right now is for us to give them the impression that it is right to insist on a position contrary to that taken by the Church through much study and prayer. I am convinced that the decision taken by the Church in the pacific is biblical and therefore the right thing to do. We are people of the “Book” (Scripture) after all. So, allow our folks in Samoa a breather and space to accept retaining what Adventists consider the “7th day Sabbath,” like that kept in Samoa for over 100 years now, the “7th day of the week in an unbroken weekly cycle” as the “Sabbath” of God.
Just remember that the “Sabbath” is an “absolute” that does not change. The “IDL” is a “variable” which, like any other changes with time. Hence, the IDL in Samoa may change in 2011 and change again, BUT THE 7TH DAY SABBATH DOES NOT CHANGE, FOR THE SAME GOD WHO CREATED THE SABBATH IS ENDUREABLE JUST AS THE SABBATH HE FIRMLY ESTABLISHED IN CREATION IS ENDUREABLE. It’s amazing how the 7 day weekly cycle has endured the test of time until the present. Why should we doubt God now regarding which day of rest to keep in Samoa.
Should Adventists then in Samoa keep “Saturday” simply because the government of Samoa has decided to shift the IDL and renamed “friday” as “Saturday”? NO. Adventists, keep the 7th day of the week in an unbroken weekly cycle as the “Sabbath” day. True, while most of the Adventist world keep “Saturday” because it coincides with the 7th day Sabbath in their part of the world, the case is not true in the pacific in island countries affected by the IDL like Samoa and Tonga. In Tonga, they keep what some misunderstand as “Sunday.” There is no day called “Sunday” in the Tongan calendar. Adventists in Tonga worship on the day called “Sapate” literally translated “Sabbath.” In contrast, Adventists in Samoa now worship on the day called “Sunday,” nevertheless, it remains, as always kept in Western Samoa for more than 100 years (and American Samoa), the 7th day of the week.
Rest assured friends, that the decision taken by the SPD and Samoa and Tokelau Mission is firmly rooted in what Adventists believe the teachings of Scripture. Let us continue to uphold our leaders and members in Samoa in prayer.
LMO
Brother Manu I quote you “In contrast, Adventists in Samoa now worship on the day called “Sunday,” nevertheless, it remains, as always kept in Western Samoa for more than 100 years (and American Samoa), the 7th day of the week.
Am I now to understand the admission that this 7 day cycle is in place from the instigation of the dateline and not from creation, which is the big selling point of the task force report given to Samoans in the one sided debate presented by the task force? We could argue this point continually and it wont matter what is truth because minds have already been made up.
I used to often wonder how E G White could be right in predicting that God’s remnant would be persecuted in the end times, for the simple reason of standing for truth. I love my church and would never stand against it unless I was convicted by God that it is in error. The isolation and displays of human nature are not pleasant but are to be expected.
The rewards are the opportunity to worship with an open and Spirit seeking group of people. No one wants to go against the majority and all who worship with us come together with a real attitude of surrender and submission to God’s will.
We have no preacher because any pastor or mission worker who stands against this error will lose his job and will not be able to feed his family. God has been faithful and every week we have had a preacher, whether it be a visiting minister from overseas or one of the elders HE has led to worship with us.
My mum was living with us here in Samoa last year, she had to go back to New Zealand because she could not handle the fact that we feel so convicted to stand against our church. I have many people that are church family and who I love very dearly who have been convicted to make the decision opposite to us and worship with the majority. My knowledge and love of these people could never bring me to beleive that they have not been inspired by God in their decisions.
Out of all this I see God refining HIS people on both sides of the debate. HE is causing to evaluate their own personal walk, to decide whether they put their salvation in to the hands or decisions of others, to decide if the familiar and the activities of this world are more important than HIM.
I realise with our stand, for the mission and for the majority there is a real nuisance factor, I sence a feeling that many leaders think we are disrespecting them. How can a group with no pastor, no church even consider standing against the leaders and the task force that led them to make the decision to worship on their sabbath. This is Gods test to the leaders, and the way they handle it will build on their relationships with or will allow human nature to take over.
May God bless in all decisions and actions, rest assured this is not just a time period where we feel uncomfortable about worshipping on sunday. We never will even if it means disfellowship.
Lighthouse worshipped for the last Sabbath at the govt prayer house, and from now on will continue worship under a marquee in Tulaele Rd, the big rock fence behind westend motors.
In the Sabbath school lesson today I was given a mind picture of a beckoning Saviour at the top of a ladder, a Saviour who hates and can’t be near sin, but a Saviour yearns to draw closer to all of us. On each rung of the ladder are one of HIS 10 commandments radiating HIS character and showing us how to climb ever nearer to HIM. HIS law is not fulfilled and is needed until we have climbed and become totally immersed in HIM. I long for that day and I know so many others do as well.
Lots of christian love
Lance Cutts
Yet that scaffold sways the future
And behind the dim unknown
Standeth God within the shadow
Keeping watch above His own
Hi Lance,
I have read your response with much respect and admiration to the members in Samoa who have chosen to take a stand for what they believe is the right “Sabbath,” called “Saturday.” Until the beginning of 2012, “Saturday” was kept by SDA’s in Samoa as the 7th day of the week. Hence, Adventists in Samoa kept Sabbath together with all pacific island nations in the Western hemisphere in line with the America’s, even though the name of the Sabbath (Sapate) was called differently in Tonga. In any case, it was the same 7th day Sabbath kept in all of those pacific nations in the West.
Today, post 2011, Adventists in Samoa still keep the uninterrupted 7th day Sabbath but the day is now called “Sunday” in the new Samoan calendar. The reason being is that the IDL changes in Samoa has resulted in a day being removed from the final week of December 2011 in order for Samoa to realign with time kept in the Eastern hemisphere together with NZ, Australia, and Asia. Hence, my previous comments regarding the “Sabbath” as an absolute in Scripture underscore the reason why Adventists in Samoa today continue to keep the 7th day of the unbroken weekly cycle now called “Sunday.” The creation account of Gen 1 and 2 affirms the 7 days weekly cycle. God cemented the “Sabbath” so to speak into a cycle of 7 literal days. Not a 5, 6, or 8 day week. In order for Samoa to adopt time of the Eastern hemisphere in 2012, the republic had to drop a day from its calendar. Obviously, the last week of December only had 6 days in it. This IDL change in Samoa should have raised the antenna for Adventists that something was not right! Anything that impinges on changing “times and laws,” specifically affecting the keeping of the 7th day of the week should have been a warning sign.
If Adventists are serious about keeping the “Sabbath,” than it must be the day God Himself calls “Sabbath” or the day He has set aside. And, the Bible affirms it is the 7th day of the week. The biblical week is made up of 7 literal days and not 6. Hence, Adventists in Samoa had a choice whether to go along with the “Saturday” of the new calendar week in Samoa and literally keep the 6th day of the week, now renamed “Saturday” OR to remain faithful to the biblical teaching and continue to keep the 7th day as the Sabbath. The SDA Church in Samoa and Tokelau chose to continue keeping the 7th day of the week uninterrupted by the IDL change as the Sabbath, now called “Sunday” in the new calendar.
If we were to remove the actual names to each day of the week (namely, Sunday, Monday and so forth), which day would Adventists keep as the Sabbath? Apparently, it would remain the 7th day. So, why would Adventists in Samoa do any different in 2012? Their forefathers have for a century kept the 7th day holy. Why should Adventists in Samoa today do differently? Adventists are not peculiar simply because they keep a day called “Saturday” holy but rather they are special in keeping the “7th day Sabbath” holy. Hence, irrespective of what the day is called, whether it is “Saturday” in NZ or “Sunday” in Samoa or “Sapate” in Tonga, what is of uttermost importance is that it is the 7th day of the week as the Scripture teaches.
Hence, while I admire the courage of our brothers and sister who have decided to go along with the IDL change and keep the day named “Saturday” as the Sabbath; I remain convinced and affirm the position taken by the Samoa and Tokelau Mission to retain the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath. After all, we are “Sabbath keepers” and our name spells it out clearly, “7th day Adventists.” Not 6 or 8 day Adventists but a remnant people who keep the 7th day of the week as the Sabbath day of rest.
Interestingly, Samoa and Tonga stand out as unique in Adventism in relation to the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath. In both island nations, all Christians worship together with 7th day Adventists on the 7th day. This is a unique blessing for the Adventist Church in both countries and is undoubtedly nothing to be upset about. There should be much rejoicing in Samoa that it has by default and courtesy of the IDL change become a “Republic of Sabbath keepers.”
My plea to those who now keep “Saturday” in Samoa is that they earnestly seek God’s help in understanding the position taken by the Samoa and Tokelau Mission. While standing up for ones faith in Samoa by keeping “Saturday” may appear honourable, honour in isolation to the “body of Christ,” the Church is disloyalty to He who is Head of the Church, Christ Himself (cf. Eph. 5:22). As Paul underscores, we need to “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called” (Eph. 4:2-4). Christ does not work in isolation to His body the Church. The question is: Are we humble enough to trust God in this matter regarding the Sabbath in Samoa? Do we believe that God is in control of His Church, its leaders and teachings? If we are, than we have no need to question Him now!
My sincere prayers are with our brothers and sisters in Samoa at this time. I pray that God will help them to objectively consider the position taken by the Adventist Church in Samoa and Tokelau Mission. Remember, the Samoa Mission does not work in isolation of the South Pacific Division and the World Church. The Adventist Church is a world-wide movement of 7th day keepers. It’s interesting to note that God through divine providence has set out in advance the Lessons in our quarterly (prepared years in advance) that addresses the Sabbath issues currently debated in Samoa. While the lesson does not address the IDL issues specifically, the undergirding principles of the unchanging nature of the Law (10 Commandments) and the “Sabbath” discussed in this week’s study underscores the absolute nature of the Sabbath as the 7th day of a literal week established by God in Creation. Truly, State laws, the IDL, cultures, and practice do change from time to time, and rightly so because after all, they are indeed “variables.” But the keeping of the 7th day of the week as the Sabbath does not change because it is an “absolute” deeply rooted in who god is, the creator of heaven and earth, who created the world in 7 literal days and commands all those who love him to keep each uninterrupted 7th day of the week holy.
Blessings,
LMO
Hi Manu
I can see exactly what you are saying and I pray while I write this.
I know how hard it must be to accept that you have not been worshipping on the 7 day cycle since creation for the last 120 years since the date line instigation. As you have pointed out when a week is adjusted then it should not alter the Sabbath.
The sad fact of reality is that when the dateline was instigated the creation week was adjusted and an extra day was added, as I have shown earlier when you add a day it puts the creation week cycle out.
This whole date change has been based on misinformation, continually we keep being called Saturday Adventist or Friday Worshipers, a form of mockery that is based on error.
The whole task force presentation of why the church should keep sunday is based on not altering the creation week 7 day cycle and that we Saturday Adventist (as the new catch phrase goes) have subtracted a day out of the week so we can keep worshipping on Saturday.
To expalin this lets go back to the 7 day creation week before 1892, now we see New Zealand and Samoa worshipping on the same day, all of a sudden the powers that be (For reasons that we all know) decide that a dateline was needed, all of a sudden for commercial reasons the 7 day creation week is altered and an extra Monday is added to the week. The church in its infancy at that time goes along with the date change( if they had invented a calender for SDAs as they have done now and had refused to add the Monday) and find themselves worshipping on Friday. Calling it the Sabbath because they didnt want to alter the creation week.
BUT THEY DID NOT!!!
When the dateline was instigated they became Saturday Adventists and they worshipped on Saturday.
Now we get to 30 december 2011, a task force comes to Samoa full of scholars that the Samoan people trust and admire. This task force tells the Samoan people that they need to follow the 7 day creation week cycle even if this means worshipping on Sunday. This is a complex issue and hard to understand, when the question is asked about the dateline change, the only answer this task force gives is “The dateline must have been God inspired because God is a God of order.”
Nothing is said about the creation week having already been altered, the mission adopts there papers full of error, other reports that show an opposing position are shelved. Pastors are not happy and they write letters to the SPD but are told in order to keep there jobs they have to be unified on this decision. Letters are sent out to churches for pastors and elders to read out in church, these letters are extremely strong worded warning people not to oppose this decision.
This whole situation is wrong, but God is in control, HIS return is very close and HE is refining HIS people, this will continue to affect so many Samoans in so many different ways. Some will embrace their precious Saviour more closely, others will feel released from their church habit and go and join the world in activities that have been denied because of the Sabbath, others will feel aggreived and make plans in human nature.
The Samoan people have an imbedded love for God in their culture, you could visit just about every house on this island and be able to talk about Jesus, where in new Zealand and Australia society has become very secular. God has many wonderful people in Samoa and satan is seeking to diminish their light, but also God is working to ignite HIS faithful.
Gods faithful are on both sides of this debate!
In considering this issue, there are two points that we need to be very clear about.
1. Nobody knows where the garden of eden was. The earth was so radically altered from the flood that there is absolutely no trace of it. We have no knowledge of how far the ark drifted during the flood, nor do we know it’s starting point or even where abouts it’s starting point was in relation to the garden of eden. Therefore, we have absolutely no reference whatsoever to determine a zero point for a universal time reference from a religious perspective.
2. In consideration of point 1 then, any starting reference point that we have is purely man made and arbitrary. It is a common consensus from all the nations that Grenwich is the starting point from which the meridians of longditude start. They end 180 degrees from that point which is the opposite side of the world.
For those of us who live somewhere between these points, there will never really be an issue. If it becomes an issue, then maybe everybody should go to Sinai and worship on Sabbath.
When dealing with worship at the two extremes, meridian 0 and 180, we need to remember that it is a man made tradition that marks these lines. Therefore it should be a conscience decision as to what day is the real Sabbath. More than likely though, if the zero reference point was moved by a consensus of all the worlds governments then let that determine what day the Seventh day of the week is for us all. If some single government decided that they wanted their country to be on one side of the line when they are not, then this should not determine what the Seventh day of the week is.
At the end of the day, as the reference points are man made and arbitrary, we cannot be judgemental in regard to outcomes.
It must be mentioned that Alaska used to be on Asian dating (during Russian administration), and the Philippines used to be on American dating (before Mexican independence which cut off Spaniards traveling through America). French Polynesia was on Asian dating. In a modern world this would be chaotic. So when transpacific travel/trade became developed in the 19th century, there needed to be a common longitude for changing dates. Many nations came together to recognize the 180th, just like the Council of Jerusalem, a gathering of everyone involved. The IDL is not an international agreement, but the reckoning of longitude is. We as a body of worldwide believers should be in harmony amongst ourselves regarding where to draw the line, not blindly submitting loyalty to any one nation’s government. Date change decisions are simply the act of politicians, not a referendum or international conference.
Talofa Lance & All,
I commend you & the believers who have made a stand for God in Samoa
Most folks only talk but dont walk the talk.
If God is with you who can be against you.
At the end of the day its between you & God, none else.
Just reading through some of the posts, no wonder people are lost with all these theories that are not biblical .
I also read the SPD & SM’s official releases & their reasons are very weak. Im thankful that people like yourselves have made a stand,
rest assured it will only be a matter of time before more folks both from the SDA’s & other christians will join you.
Samoa’s case is not the same as Tonga & other Pacific countries
& as Samoans we not only talk but we are doing something about it.
Join the Sabbath Keepers Network.
Thanks for your support Jenkins, and Samoans do stand up and walk the talk.
When a person as an individual or with their family is traveling and crosses the date line, they don’t worry that they have 6 or 8 days in their week, they worship on the Sabbath as it is where ever they are at. Why not think likewise of this situation as if the whole nation of Samoa has “traveled” or “moved” (in an odd sense it sort of has, hasn’t it?) and treat it likewise?
Makes sense to me…
Lately, a couple of folks here have talked about the 180th meridian as an international convention, as derived from the prime meridian running through Greenwich. These have suggested that there is an international consensus that should carry more weight with us than the decisions of individual governments. My research does not show any real international consensus, except for having a standard way of measuring time.
It is true that, for the sake of comparison, time is generally kept in relation to GMT. However, we have all kinds of time zones in this world, and they don’t usually follow the meridians that one sees on a globe, every 15 degrees around the world. An extreme example would be China, which is all in one time zone. Malaysia is too, although Borneo is far to the east of the Malay peninsula. Even North American time zones are marked out with strange lines, according to local choices and custom.
We see the same thing with the so-called International Dateline. I say “so-called” because this is generally regarded as having been a misnomer from the start. There was one international convention in regard to a date line, in 1884. At that time, no exact line was marked out for dividing one day from another. Individual governments were explicitly allowed the right to affect (and to collectively determine) where the date line would actually end up. So it would seem that, while the 180th meridian may have seemed ideal as a date line, to many minds, it never actually became an international convention. The best I can determine, the date line has always passed to the east of Tonga, for instance, putting Tonga on the same day as New Zealand.
I sincerely hope that difference can be resolved, but in case it is not, I strongly don’t want to see any “disfellowshipping” like the SDARM fiasco that started in Germany. May I suggest a back-up solution of dual missions, like black conferences in the U.S. which share overlapping geographic area as “white” conferences. It can be a solution so anyone could follow their conscience and where unity remains outside of this issue.
There are continued references to the original Creation Week series of seven days as it relates to Samoa. All scriptural references to Sabbath or the 7th day where we can place the location are based around what is now Israel, Palestine or Egypt.
We do not know how the original Creation week relates to post flood week except for a reference to manna not falling on that day pre-Sinai.
History does indicate that the Jews have kept a standard 7 day week cycle ever since the Babylonian captivity. That cycle of days was accepted by Jesus as he worshiped on the 7th day “as His custom was.” That implies that we must accept that God agreed that their 7th day of the 1st century was the “correct” one. Other than that, we have no knowledge of how it relates to the original week of Creation. But, believing that God does not change lends credibility to an unchanged cycle of 7 day weeks from Creation to the time of Christ.
Our problem is that the 7 day cycle of Sunday through Saturday did not come into common usage until early in the fourth century A.D. That is the same time-frame in which the Catholic church claims to have the authority to change the day of worship from the 7th day to Sunday.
However, there is a large body of evidence that the 7 day cycle we call Sunday through Saturday is in sync (as practiced in Israel and Egypt) with the Jewish cycle of the 7-day week of Christ’s time. That is, the day we call Saturday (in Israel/Palestine) is the same day the Jews identify as the 7th day Sabbath.
Returning to Genesis we find that the first sunset would have happened at the end of the 4th day and heralding in the 5th day (since days are “evening and morning”). Therefore, it is the sunset of the 6th day that is of most interest to this discussion since that would have heralded in the 7th day.
But that is in Israel/Palestine. How to we translate this to what happens in Samoa? I know of two ways and it boils down to a simple decision – but I don’t know the correct answer and see nothing in scripture to use as a guide. Sunset in Samoa either happens before or after sunset in Palestine. I don’t know when during that 4th day of creation week that the sun and moon came into existence. Nor do I know what part of the sky they would occupy when created.
Does anybody else have evidence to indicate whether the first sunset in Samoa happened before or after the first sunset in Israel/Palestine?
If the first sunset happened before, that would correspond to Sabbath (7th day) corresponding to Saturday as practiced to the east side of what we currently call the IDL. This is the same day called Friday to the west of the IDL (the “American” side).
If the first sunset happened after, that would correspond to Sabbath (7th day) corresponding to Saturday as practiced to the west of what we currently call the IDL This would be the same day called Sunday to those east of the IDL.
I just check the local sunset time and GMT offset for Jerusalem, New Zealand, Samoa, and my location (near Seattle, WA, USA).
Jerusalem – sunset 5:23 PM local Time Zone: GMT+2
Seattle – sunset 5:22 PM local Time Zone: GMT-8 (or 10 hours behind Jerusalem or 14 hrs ahead!)
Apia Samoa – sunset 7:59 PM local Time Zone: GMT+14 (12 hours ahead of or 12 hrs behind Jerusalem)
Auckland, New Zealand – sunset 8:22 PM local GMT+13 (11 hours ahead of or 13 hrs behind Jerusalem
Is Samoa 12 hrs ahead of or 12 hrs behind Jerusalem for the first sunset of the 4th day of Creation week?
Well, I forgot to adjust for the actual sunset times and used only the GMT offsets. Probably not that critical as sunset here in Seattle varies by several hours. Earliest if 4:18 pm and latest is 9:11 PM.
The main question is whether the first sunset happened in Samoa before or after the sunset in Jersusalem. [Which according to Revelation will be God's throne in the new earth.]
The Sabbath, according to Scripture, is the day between Friday and Sunday (Luke 23:52-24:1)
The Samoan Mission leadership decision to keep Sunday and the Division recommendations in favour of that are both based on the false premise that there has been a calendar change in Samoa resulting in the renaming of the days of the week. This is not true. The nation will use the same calendar as it did before. The change is in their relationship to the dateline. People are ignoring the fact that each day is observed around the globe covering a period of 48 hours. From the time the Adventists in New Zealand open the Sabbath till the time the Adventists in Tahiti close it, the earth has been through almost two complete rotations. All that Samoa has done is to move their time reckoning from the last to the first part of the 48 hours, which requires the so-called “skipping a day.” This is no different to what travellers do when they cross the dateline.
The leaders’ decision is a double standard. These same leaders do not observe the so-called “original seven day time sequence” when they fly across the dateline to another country but they expect the Samoan Adventist Church to do it when their government moves the whole country to the other side of the dateline. It has made a mockery of our beliefs and it reflects on the whole church. The implications are very wide ranging: Does this mean the rest of the nations in the Eastern hemisphere are out of sync and should now keep Sunday? Can the same day have two different names? On whose authority? Should a person studying with a Samoan or Tongan person in Australia or New Zealand recommend that they keep Sunday? Is Samoa the place to move to when Sunday laws are introduced in America? How will our evangelists in Samoa preach about the mark of the beast? Will Samoan SDAs follow a different day sequence to the rest of Samoa when they do business, fill out forms, record their births and celebrate their birthdays, etc? Of course they won’t. So they have only made themselves look foolish in the eyes of the world by carrying on life as usual for the rest of the week, but calling Sunday the Sabbath, while the rest of the nation call it Sunday. Sunday keepers are not now keeping the Sabbath; Adventists are now keeping Sunday. Incredible!
How disappointing that the wider church was not invited into the dateline discussion that leaders have been having over the past few years. Did they think the lay people have no good ideas or did they think it was a Samoan problem? This may be a result of so-called “multi-culturalism” which is dividing the church into racial groups.
The Sabbath School lessons for the first quarter, 2012, are very timely.
Dear Steve,
Thank you for your input. You have pointed out that the time difference between Apia and Jerusalem is 12 hours. I’ve checked on this information, and found it to be true but incomplete. Apia and Jerusalem are actually only 11 time zones apart. The 12-hour time difference is due to the fact that Apia is on daylight saving time, which does not affect the actual setting of the sun. Thus, Apia’s current sunset-Friday-to-sunset-Saturday Sabbath has more hours in common with Jerusalem’s Sabbath than does Apia’s current Sunday “Sabbath.”
Mine seems to be a lonely voice, pointing out that the words of the Bible itself – indeed the very teachings of Jesus – have the answer to this whole question. As an illustration of how we should observe the Sabbath, He used the example of David and his men unlawfully, but correctly, eating the showbread.
Jesus’ disciples had been harvesting, threshing, and winnowing grain in their hands, in order to satisfy their hunger. According to the scribes, if that wasn’t work, what is? True, it wasn’t much work. Would a violation of the Sabbath commandment be O.K. just because it was a small one? Jesus pointed out that “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.” In other words, when it comes to Sabbath keeping, human necessity trumps technical correctness. The disciples had not violated the true intent of the law, and the Pharisees had condemned the guiltless.
I see nothing in these teachings of Jesus to flatter human pride. In any given society, is it not a necessity that Seventh-day Adventist Christians observe Saturday (the generally accepted 7th day of the week) rather than Sunday (the generally accepted 1st day)?
So, if we are going to listen to Jesus, I have concluded that we must conform our Sabbath observance to the weekly cycle recognised by our local government and society, within reason. Someone has privately suggested that I may need to explain more clearly what I mean by “within reason.”
In Syria, for instance, no change in the weekly cycle would be within reason. So near the true Orient, where man and the Sabbath were created, only one day could be traced back to the Sabbath of creation in an unbroken weekly cycle.
Not so in British Columbia, where I live. Here we can trace our weekly cycle back to creation in either of two ways, depending on our choice of orientation. Do we look eastward, following the European week, or westward, following the Asian week? Either choice would seem to be within reason. The British Columbia government could put us on the Asian week tomorrow, turning our current Friday into Saturday, and my conscience would require adjusting my personal Sabbath observance with a one-time 6-day week (“which is not lawful” — Mark 2:26), because it is imperative that my fellow British Columbians see me keeping Sabbath on what they regard as the 7th day of the week, not on what they call Sunday. After all, the Sabbath was made for their benefit, too! I believe that Samoa’s Sabbath Keepers are following the true intent of the Sabbath commandment.
[MODERATOR COMMENT: I have no intention of allowing this thread to be sidetracked into a discussion of gun ownership or polygamy. Replies to this comment should address the Samoan problem as Lance does in discussing the gray areas between right and wrong with respect to the main issues raised under this topic.]
Hi Mr. White,
I have recently been having discussions with a face book friend in America about whether Christians should have guns. To me, I could never imagine Jesus owning a gun. Yet in America the gun lobby is so strong that even Christians believe they need them. In truth, death has no sting because when we are in Christ and are killed the next thing we will see is Christ returning, and to own a gun and actually kill some one (even in self defence) would be a big hurdle for our eternal marriage to Jesus Christ.
Then a few months ago a mate of mine was telling me that it is okay to watch porn and have an affair because King Solomon had 700 wives, not to mention the concubines. He felt that as long as he had his faith in God it didn’t matter.
Our God is an amazing God, and when we live our lives in human nature and understanding we cherish our favourite sins and the sins of the community that we live in. Satan knows that he can’t get most christians to leave the light and live in the dark, so he is quite happy to create situations where we live in the grey — where in living our lives, our actions can’t be seen as salvation destroying, yet they place us in situations not out of reach of the adversary. How do you stand for Christ when there is no difference between you and the world?
Dear Lance,
I hear you. I’ve been thinking similar thoughts lately, myself. We certainly know that professing Sabbath keepers are to be tested, but we may not know just how things are going to play out. It appears most of us know that, if we were to leave Adventism to join a Sunday keeping church, that would be tantamount to apostasy. So, it seems that Sunday keeping has come to us instead.
Of course, we have no interest in judging the sincerity or Christian experience of anyone. However, we certainly do know our own duty in this matter. Who would ever have thought it would come to this? One comment on this post actually suggested that, since God is in control of His church, we had better not differ with its official course of action. I had heard of the “infallible” church before, but this was never a part of Seventh-day Adventist doctrine!
I believe that those who wish to follow a particular course of action will be furnished with plausible excuses to do so. God knows those who are His, and no one can snatch them out of His hand. Those who are honestly deceived by the enemy of souls will have opportunity to see the light. Those who are maligned will be kept under the shadow of His wing.
As for grey areas, I don’t think it’s as hard to determine the true Sabbath day as some would have us believe.
By the way, is Noeline a relative of yours?
Hi Mr. White,
Yes Noeline is my mum, and she was living with us over here in paradise, but sadly she could not handle us going against the change of date decision. The church is everything to her, so I can understand that!
Thanks for being gracious, Lance. The church will never get one soul into heaven; only the Lord can do that. (See Psalm 49:7)
Could someone please send me a photograph or give me a link to pictures of the old calendar and the new calendar so I can compare them?
Beloved Brethren and Sisters in the Advent movement,
Suppose we were to experience a sudden pole shift such as most likely took place at the time of the long day of Joshua and at the time when the shadow reversed 10 steps of Ahaz’ sun dial… Cf. Joshua 10:12-14; 2 Kings 20:9-11!
Suppose further that most or all of the survivors on this planet following such a pole shift were to be people living on the Samoan islands…
Would it be of some consequence for the Seventh-day Adventists – and for the future inhabitants of this entire planet – to have sorted these Sabbath issues out for themselves on more than a superficial level?
Think about it! Selah!
Andy ©
PS. Let me just add that my above considerations may not be based on mere air…
[Dear Moderator, the below is an edit of my above post under Andy ©. I seem to have a problem... When not logged in my posts go in under the name Andy © and I cannot edit those posts. When logged in my posts go in under the name Tree of Life ©. What do I do?]
Beloved Brethren and Sisters in the Advent movement,
Suppose one of these days we were to experience a sudden pole shift such as most likely took place at the time of the long day of Joshua, and at the time when the shadow reversed 10 steps on Ahaz’ sun dial… Cf. Joshua 10:12-14 and 2 Kings 20:9-11!
Suppose further that most or all of the survivors on this planet following such a pole shift were to be people living on the Samoan islands…
Wouldn’t it be of quite some consequence for Seventh-day Adventists – as well as for all future inhabitants upon this entire planet – to have these Sabbath issues sorted out for themselves on more than a superficial level?
Think about it! Selah!
Andy ©
PS. Let me just add that my above considerations may be based on more than thin air… Much more!
Beloved Brethren & Sisters in the Advent movement,
Let me add this re Joshua’s long day:
When the sun reversed its path on that long day of Joshua it did so at that particular location where Joshua was at that time. In other parts of this planet things would have been different. Consider another location not too far off from where Joshua was fighting the enemies of the Gibeonites. That is, a place in the direction of the usual sunrises. At such a place the sun reversed its path a little while after sunset, and, in consequence, that location would have experienced one completed day (24 hours) and one very short day (12 hours,) while Joshua experienced only one long (36 hour) day. Cf. The Book of Jasher 88:63-65; Joshua 10:13; and 2 Samuel 1:18!
What, in that situation, was the determining factor for deciding from then on which day was to be the Seventh-day Sabbath?
Which geographical location took precedence? Or, perhaps the basis for the reckoning of the days of the week, and for the Sabbath in particular, is not about geographical location primarily?
Where was the throne of God at that time? Where was the Ark of the Covenant? What very specific geographical location determined the reckoning of the Sabbath at that time? What exactly is it that determines exactly what constitutes “an unbroken line of Sabbaths…” since the beginning of the creation recorded for us in Genesis One?
Consider it! Selah!
Andy ©