| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1142 Registered: 3-2009 |
There is a thread on FB going on where someone said:
I have never heard of that. New moons are one thing and weekly Sabbath are another, but this person is trying to say that the weekly Sabbath is counted from the new moon. Does anyone here has information on this? Is this a fabrication or is there anything to it? Hec | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 851 Registered: 2-2008  |
Hi Hec, I've been reading a book on the Temple by Alfred Edersheim. The new moon was an important event in order to celebrate Passover on the right day. Evidently, they had people across the country to signal everyone when the new moon occurred. The seventh day sabbath always occurs on the 7th day irregardless of the new moon. That is why some years there are "high" sabbaths. If the sabbath was determined by the new moon, then at the end of the month there would be a week in some months of either 7 or 8 days. Then you would have an 8 day week which wouldn't work with the command to work 6 days and then rest on the 7th. I have also asked Sondra and a couple of my sons Bible teachers about this and they have said the same thing. Maybe someone else here may have more information. vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 852 Registered: 2-2008 |
btw, I just found out last week that the book I'm reading "The Temple and its Services" by Alfred Edersheim is available for free on e-sword. It downloads and it accessed through the e-sword program on your computer. It has a lot of good information. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2006 |
Edersheim was an author from which Ellen White quoted extensively, without giving credit. He was actually a pretty good scholar by most estimates, but he is not the last word (Thank you Lord he has no authority over us!). Hec, you ar right to detect problems with this reasoning about new moons and Sabbaths, I share you feelings on this. Vivian is right, I believe, the weekly Sabbath is always the 7th day regardless of what the moon is doing. The lunar cycles were used to determine other Jewish holidays, such as Passover. It is interesting to note that Muslims must be very strict about setting their worship by the first appearance of the new moon every month. They even compete to see who can spot the thinnest, earliest crescent moon. I share your frustration with such religious demands, it makes Sabbath keeping even more onerous and arbitrary. It also demonstrates the mentality of righteousness by law, how utterly slavish, inhuman and impossible it all is. Praise Jesus our Lord He has set us free from that yoke of bondage! Martin C | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2005 |
Some believe the Lunar calender was used by the ancient Israelites. They believe the New Moon started the cycle of seven. Thus the Sabbath did change because at each New Moon, which doesn't coincide with the weekly cycle, the cycle restarted. Google "Lunar Sabbath", you will be surprised that there are people who are going by the Lunar calender to determine when the Sabbath starts. Even some Adventists are hooking up with these loonies. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 855 Registered: 2-2008 |
Martin, I didn't know that EGW copied from Edersheim! My son's Bible teacher had loaned me a copy of his book. He said that Edersheim was a well known Jewish scholar. hmmmm... interesting. What do you think of Edersheim's writings? vivian | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1296 Registered: 7-2007 |
Alfred Edersheim is an excellent author who never claimed to be a prophet! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 187 Registered: 6-2008 |
I always understood that the Sabbath was always 7 days after the previous Sabbath; in other words, every 7 days there was a weekly Sabbath. In addition to the weekly Sabbath, there was a New Moon celebration, but it didn't disrupt the weekly cycle. | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2005 |
That is what I have always been taught, but there is some validity in the Lunar cycle. The Israelites under siege, imprisoned or moving to a new destination could lose the weekly cycle. The first New Moon would get them back in cycle. Glad we don't have to worry about any of the Old Covenant laws. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 714 Registered: 10-2006 |
In my church a "high Sabbath" was when something good happened. It had nothing to do with a new moon. That was interesting information. Thanks! | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 529 Registered: 1-2006  |
Hec I also thought the seventh day Sabbath was traceable back to the time God gave it to the Israelites. Apparently the seventh-day Sabbath was readjusted almost annually, at God’s command. Quoting from a book entitled “The Christian Sabbath” by D. Shelby Corlett, D. D. from the chapter “The Jewish Sabbath Changed Annually” quoting below . . . “From scripture we gather that the Israelites had two years; a civil year which began about the time of our month of September, and a religious year beginning about the time of the latter part of our month of March. Their Sabbaths, the weekly memorial day, were dated from the first of the religious year (Lev. 23:4-6). The first Sabbath mentioned in connection with Israel’s second year began on the evening of the 14th of the month of Abib and concluded on the 15th (Lev 23:6), and this feast of Passover, or of unleavened bread, continued seven full days, until the evening of the 21st ((Exodus 12:18), concluding on the 22nd; for “from even to even, shall you celebrate your Sabbath” (Lev 23:32) said God to Israel. Thus two Sabbath dates—the 15th and the 22nd—are established in the month of Abib, the first month of their religious year. Since the Sabbath principle was six days of labor before a seventh day of rest or Sabbath, it follows necessarily that Sabbaths also fell on the first and eight days of the month. This month Abib was the beginning of months (Exodus 13:3,4), therefore the first week of Israel’s first month began on a Sabbath; also in each year, without exception, the first day of the month of Abib must be a Sabbath. Thus by scripture we have located the Sabbaths in the first month of Israel’s religious year as being fixed dates in the month rather than being on a fixed day of the week. In light of that fact we may ask; was this first Sabbath the seventh day of the week of the old year, or was it the first day of the week of the new year? By this Jewish Sabbath the sabbath principle given at creation and confirmed in the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue is followed distinctly, for it is the first day of the first week of the new Jewish religious year. The Jewish memorial Sabbath always began on a fixed date in the year, just like our New Year’s and Christmas Days, and not on a given day of the week (Exodus 12:1,2; 13:3,4). No method is known for computing the calendar by which a full year may be divided into an equal number of weeks of seven days each. Bible scholars are agreed that it is not possible to know accurately what calendar Israel followed before their captivity. If, as some think, it was a thirteen-month year with twenty-eight days each, this accounts for only 364 days, another day must be added somewhere to fill out the required 365 days. If, as others think, it was twelve months of thirty days each, five intercalary days must be added to fill out the year. But in either case it is not possible for a regular week of seven days to be observed throughout the year and have the new year begin with a Sabbath, one extra day must be accounted for in order to bring this about. It is also important to note that there was in this first month a fixed work day, the tenth day of the month, when they were to gather the lambs to sacrifice (Exodus 12:3). This could not be a Sabbath, for no such work could be performed on a Sabbath, hence a weekly cycle Sabbath was impossible. An example of this is our present New Year’s Day. This year, 1939, it came on a Sunday, but it will be 1950 before if occurs on Sunday again, and in between these dates it will fall on all of the other days of the week. So an extra Sabbath had to be inserted in Israel’s calendar somewhere to permit their memorial Sabbath to fall upon the first day of the month of Abib, the new year’s day of the religious year. Was this day inserted? Did God plan for its insertion, or was it man made? There are scriptural suggestions that it was inserted and according to the plan of God, and that this change came at the time of the feast of Pentecost. The date of the feast of Pentecost was established by counting “from the morrow after the sabbath” (Lev. 23:15-21) at Passover time when the grain harvest and a wave sheaf was presented to God, “even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days,” and this “morrow after the seventh Sabbath” was Pentecost; a Sabbath celebrating the rest after the labors of grain harvest when bread made from the freshly harvested grain was presented to God. This Pentecost was a holy convocation or Sabbath in which no servile work was to be done. Thus two Sabbaths, or memorial days, came in consecutive order, making a forty-eight hour Sabbath, which they observed. Since the Sabbath principle demanded six days of labor between Sabbaths, the seventh day or weekly memorial Sabbath would be numbered from Pentecost, and thus it would continue throughout the year. With this forty-eight hour Sabbath the religious year was adjusted to the calendar year and the first of the month of Abib would fall on the Sabbath. Thus it is apparent from the Scriptures that the Jewish memorial weekly Sabbath changed each year at the Feast of Pentecost. But do not the Jews observe the seventh day of our week, Saturday, as their Sabbath today? They do. How do they reckon this seventh day as the Sabbath? They have adjusted their religious year to the present calendar year. The mode of reckoning time now used by the Jews, we are told, was perhaps perfected by Rabbi Hillel in the year 359 or 360 A.D. Some students place the date of this change as late as 500 A.D. Jewish authorities themselves recognize that there is no direct connection between their present calendar and that used by the original Israelites. In the Jewish encyclopedia these statements are found: “The modern Jewish calendar is adapted to the Greek computation exclusively.” “The modern Jewish calendar seems to have modified it by introducing some innovations.” This present Jewish calendar differs from the original calendar at least in this fact that the Sabbath now has a fixed day of the week (Saturday) and needs not to be adjusted to a fixed date in the year. It is worthy to note that this observance of Saturday as Sabbath by the Jews dates no farther back than the fourth century after Christ. So Saturday is no nearer the original Jewish memorial weekly Sabbath than Sunday of any other day of the week.” Bob | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1147 Registered: 3-2009 |
This would be taking for granted that the phrase "six days shall thou labor" is a command to labor six days. Couldn't it mean, as it seems to be understood, "you may work six days, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God."? Hec | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8337 Registered: 3-2004  |
For those of you who are on CARM a man who goes the name of Troubleshooter has written a lot about the Jewish sabbath with the lunar calendar and another calendar. It is very interesting. He is a former sda minister from Australia. Diana L | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 530 Registered: 1-2006 |
Good question, Hec. I'm not sure how the Israelites would have regarded the "six days shalt thou labor." I always assumed that it was in the context of their having so recently come out of slavery where there was apparently never a day off. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 856 Registered: 2-2008 |
Thanks for posting that quote from Corlett, Bob... going into my files! vivian | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2005 |
Actually, man has established the first day of the New Year. God established the lunar cycle. It would be more reasonable to believe the New Moon cycle than the New Year cycle. There are a lot of theories out there and the Bible seems to only say that the Israelites were to work six days and rest one day. Was there a penalty for breaking the cycle? It seems the penalty came because of the things that were done on the established day. not on which day. If the Israelites lost track for some reason the day could be picked back up at the next New Moon, which by the way, was a Sabbath. Like Diana stated, troubleshooter on CARM has done a lot of research on the Lunar calender and has concluded that the Israelites went by that system. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2006 |
BobJ, that is a fascinating quote from Dr. Corlett, thanks for pasting it up. The centrality of the lunar cycle to the Jewish religious calendar puts the Old Covenant in a clearer light than we had been taught. At least the Jewish scholars are honest in admitting that their calendar had been "adjusted" to the secular calendar 1500 yrs ago. It is now a calendar of convenience, and not the one instituted by God at Sinai. Consequently, when Adventists and Jews celebrate the Sabbath, they only hit the actual Sabbath occasionally by luck, since they ignore the moon's cycle. You would be just as successful keeping the actual Sabbath by picking holy days randomly! To separate the daily cycle from the lunar cycle, as sabbatarians have done, is not possible, and the whole system falls apart. The Adventist doctrine of the Sabbath's eternality is firmly attached to the diurnal rhythm of earth. However, real Sabbath keeping requires serious "moon-watching," which might be fascinating for some of us, but also part of "a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear." Because of Christ, we can worship in spirit and in truth, and our moon-watching is purely "re-creational." Martin C | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 532 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hec, and all who posted here . . . I think I will need to learn more about the lunar cycles as linked to OC weekly sabbath cycles. Thanks for the heads-up on this! CARM was mentioned--and I'll take a look, but I'm not acquainted with that discussion board. If anyone has a direct link to troubleshooter's material, I'd appreciate it! Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 533 Registered: 1-2006 |
Correction--in regard to CARM--I am acquainted with it, but haven't posted there that I can recall. Vivian--I downloaded e-sword! Thanks for the suggestion! Bob | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 857 Registered: 2-2008 |
I love e-sword... great tool! vivian | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2010 |
<<< Big E-Sword Fan. This year I paid for a Bible Software "Word Search 9" which includes the Thompson Chain Reference Bible and Study Companion. This is a plug in for this product but I don't work for them or earn anything from it. I just like talking about what I enjoy. It is available for $50, but if you can afford it check out the WORDsearch 9 Preaching Library $349. That is the one I use, and I have to tell you I don't regret getting it. It is the best Bible software I have tried to date. http://www.wordsearchbible.com/catalog/product.php?pid=3596 | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2010 |
P.S. my new favorite Bible translation is the NEW CENTURY VERSION. I refer to the King James most of the time since I know it the best, but for sitting back and reading the word, no other translation compares. I found it on WORDSearch 9. That Bible is so CLEAR and easy to UNDERSTAND and in my opinion it does not sacrifice the original meaning of the Greek. Personally I don't mess around when it comes to the Bible. I need a Bible that conveys what the text is meant to say. This translation does it in a way I have never seen done in another translation. I highly recommend it! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 198 Registered: 6-2008 |
A few years ago I found a Thompson Chain Reference Bible in a second-hand book store and bought it for a couple of dollars. I've worn it out, so I went to an online used-book company and found another one in great condition for only about $10 or so. I use a number of different versions when I'm studying, but when I want to look up something I always end up with Thonpson's. Haven't tried the online version of it, though. (Guess I'm too old fashioned!) |
