The Adventist Sabbath Paradox - Page 7 - Christian Discussion Forums

jaman · 08-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

In the second century A.D., proof that the Jews were still keeping the seventh day Sabbath according to the lunar week can be found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria (circa 150-215 A.D.):

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

"And that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though not in the same way, he [St. Peter] will infer thus:

Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first; nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread, nor the feast, nor the great day."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

The Fourth Commandment. ………………..

"And in periods of seven days the moon undergoes its changes. In the first week she becomes half moon; in the second, full moon; and in the third, in her wane, again half moon; and in the fourth she disappears. Further, as Seleucus the mathematician lays down, she has seven phases. First, from being invisible she becomes crescent-shaped, then half moon, then gibbous and full; and in her wane again gibbous, and in like manner half moon and crescent-shaped."

This is about as plain as it can get.
In Clement’s day, each and every month and every lunar week (as kept by the Jews) was still tied to the moon’s phases and, by extension, the weekly Sabbath was also still tied to the moon!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interestingly enough the same website also gives us this:-

Quote:

Origin of the sabbath

The Sabbath is first met with in connection with the fall of the manna (Exodus 16:22 sqq.), but it there appears as an institution already known to the Israelites. The Sinaitic legislation therefore only gave the force of law to an existing custom. The origin of this custom is involved in obscurity. It was not borrowed from the Egyptians, as the week of seven days closing with a day of rest was unknown to them. In recent years a Babylonian origin has been advocated. A lexicographical tablet gives shabattu as the equivalent of um nuh libbi, "the day of the appeasement of the heart" (of the gods). Furthermore, a religious calendar of the intercalary month Elul and of the month Marchesvan mentions the 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th, and 19th days, the latter probably because it was the 49th (7x7) day from the beginning of the preceding month, as days on which the king, the magician, and the physician were to abstain from certain acts. The king, for instance, was not to eat food prepared with fire, put on bright garments, ride in a chariot, or exercise acts of authority. These days were then, days of propitiation, and therefore shabattu days. We have thus periods of seven days the last day of which is marked by abstention from certain actions, and called shabattu, in other words the equivalent of the Sabbath. A Babylonian origin is not in itself improbable, since Chaldea was the original home of the Hebrews, but there is no proof that such is actually the case. The reading shabattu is uncertain, shapattu being at lest equally probable. Besides, there is no evidence that these days were called shabattu; the signs so read are found affixed only to the 15th day of the month, where, however, sha patti, "division" of the month is the more probable reading. These days, moreover, differed entirely from the Sabbath. They were not days of general rest, business being transacted as on other days. The abstention from certain acts had for object to appease the anger of the gods; the days were, therefore, days of penance, not of joy like the Sabbath. Lastly, these days followed the phases of the moon, whereas the Sabbath was independent of them. Since the Sabbath always appear as a weekly feast without connexion with the moon, it cannot be derived, as is done by some writers, from the Babylonian feast of the full moon, or fifteenth day of the month, which, moreover, has only doubtful claim to the designation shabattu.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm

**Troubleshooter** · 08-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

In the second century A.D., proof that the Jews were still keeping the seventh day Sabbath according to the lunar week can be found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria (circa 150-215 A.D.):

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

"And that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though not in the same way, he [St. Peter] will infer thus:

Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first; nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread, nor the feast, nor the great day."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

The Fourth Commandment. ………………..

"And in periods of seven days the moon undergoes its changes. In the first week she becomes half moon; in the second, full moon; and in the third, in her wane, again half moon; and in the fourth she disappears. Further, as Seleucus the mathematician lays down, she has seven phases. First, from being invisible she becomes crescent-shaped, then half moon, then gibbous and full; and in her wane again gibbous, and in like manner half moon and crescent-shaped."

This is about as plain as it can get.
In Clement’s day, each and every month and every lunar week (as kept by the Jews) was still tied to the moon’s phases and, by extension, the weekly Sabbath was also still tied to the moon!

Yes thanks...good references.

There is no historical manuscript evidence for a Sabbath before the Passover...
...it seems that a Sabbath dependant on a lunar cycle was only then initiated by the Lord...
...and embedded in the culture of Israel as one of the symbols of the Messiah...
...and this cycle remained until about the second century AD.

The Saturday and Sunday designations are never used in the canonical manuscripts...
...even though the Julian calendar had been in force for the Roman empire from about 50 BC.

The Roman Catholic church later supported the Julian/Gregorian Sunday...
...but this day was not equal to the 'first day of the week' of the New Testament...
...the Seventh-day Adventist contention that the Julian/Gregorian Saturday is equals to the Sabbath has no basis in scripture or any supportng documents...
...and their idea that it will one day be some kind of 'test' has no foundation.

**Troubleshooter** · 08-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is 8:50 pm on the East coast of Australia and the Moon is 98% full...
...so it will be completely full by the time anyone in the America's and Britain see it tonight.

Go out and have a look at it tonight and remember what a full-Moon looks like.

The Moon for April of 31 AD was in 'Waning Gibbous' at the date demanded by the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

Saturday, April 28 shows only 85.21 % illumination.
In a couple of days I will alert you to when the Moon is in this phase.

If you go out tonight you will see the moon as it would have appeared...
...on the day SDA's suggest for the crucifixion in 31 AD.

It is obviously not a full moon...
...and if your untrained eye can see it don't you reckon first century Jews would have noticed the difference?

**Troubleshooter** · 10-09-2009

The idea that one day the Sabbath will be some kind of 'test' has no foundation.

Greg Goodchild · 10-09-2009

The Sabbath has been a test in every generation. To keep Sabbath, according to the Bible, is a testimony that you are willing to worship the Creator of the universe. The Sabbath was a test in Egypt where Moses was making the Israelites "rest" Sabbatize from their labors. Exodus 5:5 It was a test for Israel in the worship of idols. Israel worshipped the sun in Ezekiel 8:16. It was clearly stated that the Sabbath was a test issue in Jeremiah 17:19-27 It was clearly stated that Sabbath was a test of the sincerity of Israel coming back from the Babylonian captivity in Nehemiah 13:15-21. Sabbath was a test for the Jews in the time of Jesus. The leadership wanted to kill Jesus for His refusal to observe Sabbath like they did. John 5, Matthew 12, John 9. The Jews were willing to kill the Lord of the Sabbath. God says that this same issue will come up again in the forced worship of Rev 13. The true worship will be presented by God's people in Rev 14:7. God's true people will worship Him as the Creator. The Sign of the Creator is the Sabbath. Exodus 31:12-17

**Troubleshooter** · 11-23-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

The lunar year began with the month Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

Tree of Life © · 11-23-2009

One Seventh-day Adventist’s Point of View

Dear TroubleShooter,

Thanks for personally inviting me to this thread of yours!

You’ll find my initial comments inserted in red font within your quoted post below.

Enjoy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

[All red edits added by Tree of Life ©]

William Miller originally believed Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

- Very interesting! If indeed that’s what William Miller did, then the choice of 457 B.C., as one among at least three options, is not resting squarely upon 31 AD as is proposed in our SS Quarterly, but is presumably a “best fit” option as perceived by William Miller at that time. To a certain extent this option then seems based upon circular reasoning, i.e. 457 BC depends upon 31 AD while 31 AD depends likewise upon 457 BC. (Cf. my PowerPoint presentation, slides #14-22, as currently found at adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/4900DaysOfDaniel.ppt or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/4900DaysOfDaniel.ppt)

- Yet, in all honesty, we have to give a lot of credit to William Miller and to our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers for their honest pursuit of the truth as found in the Holy Scriptures – which has definitely brought along many many rich blessings to this little planet of ours. As no doubt all true “Bereans” among us know by our own experience, arriving at the ultimate and most valuable truths one has to begin one’s study somewhere and the route is almost always quite a circuitous route, or isn’t that your experience too? If you won’t seek, you won’t find will you? Deut 4:29; Prov 1:20-33; 8:17; Eccl 8:17; Jer 29:13; Hos 2:7; 5:6; Matt 7:7; Luke 11:9; 15:8; John 7:34, 36; Acts 17:27; Rev 3:20-22!

In the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

- I have yet to discover the proof for the Karaites now or ever reckoning their weekly Shabbat from the New Moon Day... But then this Lunar Sabbath argument is one I’ve not previously dug into. So perhaps the proof is there? - Then again, I have been in touch with today’s Karaites for quite some time without hearing or seeing anything re Lunar based Shabbat keeping outside of the seven special annual Shabbats that are tied to the three annual feasts that are proclaimed by our Eternal God as special Feasts for each of His Sons and Daughters to enjoy throughout eternity. Re “for ever” passages, please cf. Exodus 12:14, 17, 24; 31:17; 32:13; Leviticus 16:29, 31; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; Deuteronomy 4:40; 5:29; 12:28; 28:46; 29:29!

The lunar year began with the month Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

- Yes, Deuteronomy 16:4 makes it quite clear that the Passover lamb was being killed at the end of Aviv 14 (Passover) and the beginning of Aviv 15 (1st Day of Unlevened Bread.)

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

- To be precise, this statement is incorrect! Although it is true that the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread is frequently being referenced by the word Passover, Passover proper is only Aviv 14, i.e. the day prior to the beginning of the Feast. It’s a preparation day and not a Shabbat per se – unless it happens to coincide with a weekly Shabbat!

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

- That may or may not be true. But more importantly, as a true Seventh-day Adventist believer I do not a priori base my beliefs upon any group of men, whether or not such be Seventh-day Adventist. My creed is the Bible and such other primary facts of creation as the Creator may provide me from time to time. My creed may also be expressed in terms of John Chapter 17 or even more specifically in terms of John 17:17.

- That being the case I do no longer support the 31 AD crucifixion date – The Lord has led me onwards to higher ground with very much more exact dates for all of these particular events and to even more striking fulfillments of the prophecies provided us through Daniel. Cf. 1) adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm and associated links, and 2) adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm, respectively! [Please, remove any spaces from those URLs! I seem to be unable to do so...]

The Karaite calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

- As I said above, “I have yet to discover the proof...”

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…

- Ditto...

…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

- So far I’ve seen no evidence for the Julian/Gregorian calendar being the origin of the seven day weekly cycle as we have known it until it too was changed in many countries such that Monday is now the 1st day of the week… Please cf. Daniel 7:25!

Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

Brotherbrian · 11-23-2009

Problems here are mainly that, to my knowledge, Karaite Jews do not observe a "lunar sabbath". They observe the same weekly sabbath of the regular jewish calendar. AFAIK, William Miller basically used HIS idea of what karaite judaism was to justify 1844, namely, the oversimplified idea that "Oh, karaites just hold everything a month later than the traditional jewish calendar". Which is not the case. in the 1800s, 1844 and beyond, karaites were observing the traditional calendar of rabbinic judaism.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

Problems here are mainly that, to my knowledge, Karaite Jews do not observe a "lunar sabbath". They observe the same weekly sabbath of the regular jewish calendar. AFAIK, William Miller basically used HIS idea of what karaite judaism was to justify 1844, namely, the oversimplified idea that "Oh, karaites just hold everything a month later than the traditional jewish calendar". Which is not the case. in the 1800s, 1844 and beyond, karaites were observing the traditional calendar of rabbinic judaism.

This was addressed further down the thread...
...William Miller and Samuel Snow did not calculate according to contemporary Karaite reckoning...
...who had in the early 1800's also opted for a cyclical week...
...but by the reckoning used by original Karaite Jews.

Tree of Life © · 11-30-2009

Re the Basics of this Thread

Dear TroubleShooter,

I have a few questions for you re two of your posts (as also quoted at the bottom of this post: )

1.
In your first post below you are claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

Where is your support for this claim of yours?

2.

Then you conclude the same post of yours by claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

3.
In your second post below, you seem to be insinuating that the GC Committee was in agreement with your above claims, or isn’t that implied by these words of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It was not done in a corner...
...and all the issues were well understood...
...and the implications realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble the church with it.

4.
Now, if that is true, and if I am not misreading you, then…

What do you make of the following words of M. L. Andreasen?

- Isn’t it obvious that these words of M. L. Andreasen is making it quite clear that the reckoning of lunar months “does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath?”

- And isn’t it quite obvious from the following quoted words of his, that M. L. Andreasen is not at odds with anyone in the Committee re this particular?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L., Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence (4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”] does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath…”

[Bracketed words added / Tree of Life (c)]

Aren’t those words of M. L. Andreasen quite at odds with your above insinuations, while clearly indicating that no one in that Committee was ever even considering a thing such as this construct called the “Lunar Sabbath argument?”

5.

Please show me clearly where I am missing something! I’ve read most of the Grace Amadon Collection documents currently published at 4 Angel’s Publications. Yet, I have failed to find anything of substance in support of this so called Lunar Sabbath argument...

6.
Nevertheless, I am also seeing that the GC Committee was suffering from confusion re a number of particulars.

Perhaps, for the purposes of this thread, the most important among those confusions of the Committee members is the obvious discrepancy between Grace E. Amadon’s understanding, as expressed by the following words as quoted by her, and between the very clear and obvious meaning of the words themselves.

That is, from the context it is clear that Grace E. Amadon and others in the Committee believed that Bliss and the Millerites were reckoning Tishri 1, 1844 as beginning at sunset October 12 and not “with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of October…” as clearly stated by Bliss. The reasoning of the Committee seems to be that each and all of the Feast Days were fixed once Nisan 1 was determined (cf. her words in the remainder of this 3 page document of hers: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bliss, The Advent Shield, January, 1845, p. 278-9 (as quoted by Amadon, Grace E., How The Millerites Chose Oct. 22, p. 3 (4angelspublications.com/pdf/HowTheMilleritesChoseOct.pdf)

“Reckoning from this [Nisan] moon, the seventh Jewish month commenced with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of October; so that the tenth day of the seventh month synchronized with the 22d of that month.” –Bliss, The Advent Shield, January, 1845, p. 278.

“It is therefore evident that the seventh month must have commenced with the new moon in October; and that the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish Sacred year, in A. D. 1844, could only synchronize with the 22d of that month.” – Idem., p. 279.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

7.
Could it be that this whole ‘Lunar Sabbath argument’ is derived from this very same misunderstanding - re a relative fixing of the seven special Feast Days within any given Karaite year - a misunderstanding evidently shared generally among the GC Committee members?

I am hoping you will help us all by shedding a little of your light upon these issues. How do you perceive these items?

Peace over each family and over each home that is honestly seeking for the realities of each particular of importance,

Tree of Life ©

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

William Miller originally believed Christ was crucified in 33 AD…
…but he changed his position to the 31 AD date prior to 1843/1844.

Question: Why did William Miller change his mind?
Answer: William Miller changed the basis for his calculations to a Karaite luni-solar calendar.

Question: How did changing to a Karaite luni-solar calendar make 31 AD a viable date?
Answer: On a luni-solar calendar every Passover falls on a weekly Sabbath day.

In the Karaite system, the months start with the first appearance of the new moon…
…”In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.” Lev 23:7…
…the first day of the month was the first weekly Sabbath…
…then six work days were counted until the next Sabbath on the eighth day of the month...
...and the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th were also weekly Sabbath’s.

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

The lunar year began with the month Nisan…
…the 1st day of Nisan was calculated from the first sighting of the New Moon following the Barley Harvest…
…the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th Nisan…
…and eaten that night, the night of the full moon…
…this was the beginning of 15th Nisan a lunar weekly Sabbath.

So on the Karaite calendar every Passover was a Sabbath.

This creates for Seventh-day Adventism a Sabbath paradox?

Seventh-day Adventists are the only group who support the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

The Karaite calendar is the only objective reason to support the 31 AD crucifixion date.

The Karaite luni-solar calendar weekly cycles do not coincide…
…with the continuous successive weekly cycle of the Julian/Gregorian calendars.

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

[Color emphasis added in both of these posts / Tree of Life (c)]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That's a good summary Pegg...
...the SDA church has known since at least 1938.

On November 7, 1938, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee to investigate discrepancies in calendation.

The committee was comprised of SDA luminaries...

The Chair was Elder L. E. Froom, Secretary Dr. Lynn Harper Wood and committee members Dr. M. L. Andreasen, Professor M. E. Kern, Professor W. Homer Teesdale, Professor Albert W. Werline, Elder F. C. Gilbert and Miss Grace Amadon.

The report was delivered July, 9, 1939...
...present were all the General Conference members available, plus all the Union Presidents in the U.S., Bible teachers, Ministers and many others...
...the report started at 9:30 A.M. and the meeting ended about 10:00 P.M.

It was not done in a corner...
...and all the issues were well understood...
...and the implications realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble the church with it.

Who would have thought it would come down to...
...either the Sabbath...
...or the Sanctuary doctrine.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

All of your questions are answered elsewhere in the thread or from links from within the thread...
...I will attempt to reorganize them here for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToL

Re the Basics of this Thread

Dear TroubleShooter,

I have a few questions for you re two of your posts (as also quoted at the bottom of this post: )

1. In your first post below you are claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The weekly Sabbaths in the Karaite calendar were determined…
…by the sighting of the New Moon each month…
…and not by a perpetual weekly cycle.

Where is your support for this claim of yours?

There are various sources...
...it is a fact of history that William Miller used a Karaite calendar (as opposed to a Rabbinic) to determine the end of the 2300 day/year schema sometime in 1844.

William Miller first used a contempory Karaite calendar to determine the Day of Atonement falling some time in March of that year.

One of his colleagues Samuel Snow later adjusted the day specifically to October 22 1844...
...he did this on the basis of an old Karaite calendar determination of days...
...this calendar used a Lunar determination of days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Miller_(preacher)
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/jews_and_sabbath.php

I will answer each question in a separate post.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

2. Then you conclude the same post of yours by claiming the following, are you not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…
…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…
…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

This was not a paradox for William Miller or Samuel Snow...
...neither of the men were Sabbatarians.

It was a simple question for them...
...they had a single focus...
...they believed that the old Karaite calendar would be the most accurate way to determine the Day of Atonement in 1844 which Snow finally determined as October 22 1844.

The paradox was only created when Adventists later believed they should keep the Sabbath and not Sunday as a day of worship.

So they ended up having embraced an origin determined by a Lunar calendar...
...determining their Sabbath on the basis of the Julian/Gregoorian.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

3. In your second post below, you seem to be insinuating that the GC Committee was in agreement with your above claims, or isn’t that implied by these words of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It was not done in a corner...
...and all the issues were well understood...
...and the implications realized...
...but it was decided not to trouble the church with it.

On November 7, 1938, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee to investigate discrepancies in calendation principles that could affect the church's understanding of the prophetic timelines of Daniel.

Details of the Research Commitee Final Report are outlined here...

http://www.4angelspublications.com/rcfr.php

The entire report of the committee is linked from this page.

The problem was later highlighted in the Adventist Yearbook 1883

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."
(capitalization emphasis appeared in the original)

A facsimile of the page appears here...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This anomaly remains a problem for which there is no answer.

Tree of Life © · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

On November 7, 1938, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists appointed a Research Committee to investigate discrepancies in calendation principles that could affect the church's understanding of the prophetic timelines of Daniel.

Details of the Research Commitee Final Report are outlined here...

4angelspublications.com/rcfr.php

The entire report of the committee is linked from this page.

The problem was later highlighted in the Adventist Yearbook 1883

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."
(capitalization emphasis appeared in the original)

A facsimile of the page appears here...
4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This anomaly remains a problem for which there is no answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more importantly than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has seemed fit to bless me with sharing with you the specific and very exact answer to that "anomaly... problem..." which you are referencing by these words of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

This anomaly remains a problem for which there is no answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

You'll find it at this link: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm

- Be sure to follow relevant links on that page and you shouldn't find yourself disappointed!

Yet, be prepared to revise some of the erroneous teachings you've been programmed with over the years by the powers that be . . . Exactly as prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And as also referenced by Jesus in Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

Praise the Lord of Hosts, our Savior!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more importantly than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has seemed fit to bless me with sharing with you the specific and very exact answer to that "anomaly... problem..." which you are referencing by these words of yours:

- Be sure to follow relevant links on that page and you shouldn't find yourself disappointed!

Yet, be prepared to revise some of the erroneous teachings you've been programmed with over the years by the powers that be . . . Exactly as prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And as also referenced by Jesus in Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

I am very busy elsewhere proclaiming the Gospel to people who don't know it...
...if you think you have answers I prefer that you present them here so other can benefit from your insight.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToL

4. Now, if that is true, and if I am not misreading you, then…

What do you make of the following words of M. L. Andreasen?

- Isn’t it obvious that these words of M. L. Andreasen is making it quite clear that the reckoning of lunar months “does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath?”

- And isn’t it quite obvious from the following quoted words of his, that M. L. Andreasen is not at odds with anyone in the Committee re this particular?:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L., Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence (4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”] does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath…”

[Bracketed words added / Tree of Life (c)]

Aren’t those words of M. L. Andreasen quite at odds with your above insinuations, while clearly indicating that no one in that Committee was ever even considering a thing such as this construct called the “Lunar Sabbath argument?”

Yet curiously it was still seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and post it here soon.

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and post it here soon.

"We cannot afford to start trouble of our own. To the world it will look that the present proposed calendar is advanced for a specific purpose – not for the purpose of adoption, for we will find that it is impossible of universal application – not for the purpose of supporting the 1844 date. I do not believe that we are under that necessity. It must be possible to establish October 22 1844 without resorting to such devices."

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/Andreasens%20letter.pdf

Tree of Life © · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and post it here soon.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)

Dear Trouble Shooter,

"...over forty years later..." than what? 1939, 1844, or what? Neither one of those dates seem to fit your words, do they?

Peace,
Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,

"...over forty years later..." than what? 1939, 1844, or what? Neither one of those dates seem to fit your words, do they?

More than forty years later than the GC Conferenced convened to discuss it.

Tree of Life © · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

More than forty years later than the GC Conferenced convened to discuss it.

Ok Trouble Shooter,

It seems clear to me then, that, per your reckoning, 1883 is "...over 40 years later..." than 1939???

Isn't there something that's gone awry here? It certainly isn't a typo re 1883 or 1939, for clearly the links you've provided to documents associated with those two years do confirm that those are indeed the years you are meaning to reference. Yet to me, 1883 is 56 years before 1939, not "over 40 years later..."

So what am I missing?

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-01-2009

Note to self...I must not post late at night...
...obviously 1844 date for the cross was an issue in 1883 and the problem with dates was still significant enough to require a GC conference committee in 1939.

Tree of Life © · 12-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Note to self...I must not post late at night...
...obviously 1844 date for the cross was an issue in 1883 and the problem with dates was still significant enough to require a GC conference committee in 1939.

Thanks Trouble Shooter!

Thanks for admitting an obvious error! It happens to all of us. It happens to the best. Once the obvious is seen, recognized, accepted, admitted, to self and unto others, a lot of tension is suddenly relieved. All of a sudden there is peace. All of a sudden there is room for something better, something more in line with reality, something giving each of us more strength, health, and happiness in life.

Like as you are making a "Note to self...I must not post late at night...," so also I can experience relief in your admission of the obvious and go on to bigger and better things...

Isn't this what true forgiveness is all about?

And thanks ever so much for standing up for your convictions re the Paradox of the 2,300 mornings and evenings vs. an obviously erroneous 31 A.D. crucifixion year and for sharing with me the apparently reliable, yet false, basis for these 2,300/31AD items as defended by the 1939 SDA GC Research Committee on the basis of a computation of the U.S. Naval Observatory - which doesn't stand up to the test of reality as is obvious from the last 10 years of actual New Moon crescent observations by Karaites in Israel! The more obvious this error can be made, the sooner it will be corrected. For isn't it a shame to all of us, who claim to believe in honesty and in the truthfulness of the Holy Scriptures, to recognize such an error while that error is yet being widely proclaimed in evangelistic campaigns and in educational institutions alike?

The sooner we can rid ourselves of errors such as these, the sooner we can go on to bigger and better things... The sooner there will be peace and happiness in our families and in our homes... The sooner our level of confusion and frustration will diminish and even vanish forever! Tension and distrust will be replaced with peace among men and mutual trust... when we do perceive, in one another, sincerity and an honest will to correct each our part in errors yet extant!

Thanks again, Trouble Shooter!

Peace,

Tree of Life (c)

PS. For details re the 2,300/31AD paradox, please cf. my prior post at forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706 !!!

**Troubleshooter** · 12-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

And thanks ever so much for standing up for your convictions re the Paradox of the 2,300 mornings and evenings vs. an obviously erroneous 31 A.D. crucifixion year and for sharing with me the apparently reliable, yet false, basis for these 2,300/31AD items as defended by the 1939 SDA GC Research Committee on the basis of a computation of the U.S. Naval Observatory - which doesn't stand up to the test of reality as is obvious from the last 10 years of actual New Moon crescent observations by Karaites in Israel! The more obvious this error can be made, the sooner it will be corrected. For isn't it a shame to all of us, who claim to believe in honesty and in the truthfulness of the Holy Scriptures, to recognize such an error while that error is yet being widely proclaimed in evangelistic campaigns and in educational institutions alike?

It is easy to see things as they really are when you are not trying to hang onto some personal agenda.

Quote:

The sooner we can rid ourselves of errors such as these, the sooner we can go on to bigger and better things... The sooner there will be peace and happiness in our families and in our homes... The sooner our level of confusion and frustration will diminish and even vanish forever! Tension and distrust will be replaced with peace among men and mutual trust... when we do perceive, in one another, sincerity and an honest will to correct each our part in errors yet extant!

I don't think our salvation depends on correct doctrine or theology...
...only whether we believe in the historical achievement of Jesus.

Doctrine and Theology only has value as it brings Jesus into clearer focus.

Quote:

PS. For details re the 2,300/31AD paradox, please cf. my prior post at forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706 !!!

I will answer this post, I have just been otherwise occupied.

You should read through the main points of the following thread...
...it covers some of the issues you have raised that are not filled out here.
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

...particularly here.

http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=4752097#poststop

Tree of Life © · 12-01-2009

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Thanks ever so much for taking of your valuable time to answering my questions. That is very helpful to me!

Thanks also for all the good links you are providing in specific response to my questions!

Yet, there are some things in your responses that I do not seem to be able to make any sense of. Perhaps I am losing my mind???

Please help me sort these things out by letting me know a little about your point of view!

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Yet curiously it was still seen as a problem in the Adventist Yearbook 1883...
...over forty years later.

There is also a letter by one of the committee members that I can't locate immediately where it is stated that they would not trouble the people with it...
...meaning the difficulty of observing a lunar determined Sabbath...
...I will find it and post it here soon.

[Color emphasis added throughout / Tree of Life (c)]

The "letter..." that you are referencing above is the one you are here quoting, isn't it?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

"We cannot afford to start trouble of our own. To the world it will look that the present proposed calendar is advanced for a specific purpose – not for the purpose of adoption, for we will find that it is impossible of universal application – not for the purpose of supporting the 1844 date. I do not believe that we are under that necessity. It must be possible to establish October 22 1844 without resorting to such devices."

4angelspublications.com/pdf/Andreasens%20letter.pdf

But... Isn't this letter that you are quoting focusing upon quite another matter than "observing a lunar determined Sabbath!" The problem dealt with in this letter is very much of a different nature, namely "the Wandering Lunar Day Lines...!" (Cf. the title of that letter that you are quoting!) That's quite another matter than "a lunar determined Sabbath...", isn't it?!!!

How do you connect one with the other?

Furthermore, within the post of mine that you are responding to, I already quoted that very letter as explicitly stating as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreasen, M. L., Objections…, p.2, middle long paragraph, last sentence (4angelspublications.com/pdf/Objections.pdf )

“For while the proposed scheme [re how to deal with “the wandering lunar day line”] does not in any way affect the succession of the days of the week, and hence does not affect the sabbath…”

[Bracketed words and color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

How do you connect "the Wandering Lunar Day Lines" with "observing a lunar determined Sabbath???" Especially in the face of said explicit statement to the contrary - within the very same letter!!!

Please explain that to me for I for one cannot make any sense out of that!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tree of Life ©

5.
Please show me clearly where I am missing something! I’ve read most of the Grace Amadon Collection documents currently published at 4 Angel’s Publications. Yet, I have failed to find anything of substance in support of this so called Lunar Sabbath argument...

Quote:

6.
Nevertheless, I am also seeing that the GC Committee was suffering from confusion re a number of particulars.

Perhaps, for the purposes of this thread, the most important among those confusions of the Committee members is the obvious discrepancy between Grace E. Amadon’s understanding, as expressed by the following words as quoted by her, and between the very clear and obvious meaning of the words themselves.

That is, from the context it is clear that Grace E. Amadon and others in the Committee believed that Bliss and the Millerites were reckoning Tishri 1, 1844 as beginning at sunset October 12 and not “with the appearance of the moon on the 13th of October…” as clearly stated by Bliss. The reasoning of the Committee seems to be that each and all of the Feast Days were fixed once Nisan 1 was determined (cf. her words in the remainder of this 3 page document of hers: )

Quote:

7.
Could it be that this whole ‘Lunar Sabbath argument’ is derived from this very same misunderstanding - re a relative fixing of the seven special Feast Days within any given Karaite year - a misunderstanding evidently shared generally among the GC Committee members?

I am hoping you will help us all by shedding a little of your light upon these issues. How do you perceive these items?

These are not really question but statements and reflections...
...I am not sure what you want me to comment on.

Brotherbrian · 11-30-2009

my grasp of this is still that the karaites never had an issue with the julian-gregorian calendar 7th day sabbath. they observe it to this day, and were in the 1800s.

Maybe im missing the point here?

**Troubleshooter** · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

my grasp of this is still that the karaites never had an issue with the julian-gregorian calendar 7th day sabbath. they observe it to this day, and were in the 1800s.

Maybe im missing the point here?

My understanding is that the Karaite calendar as it existed in the 1800's and today observes a seven day cycle in sync with the Julian/Gregorian...
...but the older Karaite calendar that William Miller/Samuel Snow used to establish 22 October 1844 as the Day of Atonement that year...
...was a Luni/Solar calendar used prior to the establishment of the Julian calendar in approximately 50 BC...
...and may have continued in use for another two centuries.

It seems from biblical and extra-biblical sources that the calendar Israel used from the Exodus from Egypt for approx 1400 years was Lunar.
It also seems that the calendar that was in use when Jesus lived and died was Lunar.

The Hebrew designation of days and months were Lunar.
Nisan, Tishri etc were lunar months determined by each new moon.

The words Friday, Saturday and Sunday do not appear in biblical literature...
...and appear to be determined differently...
...and are not necessarily the same as 'preparation day', 'Sabbath' and 'first day of the week'.

Jewish scholarship supports this contention.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle” (Universal Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life. The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later] discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

So SDA's mark their origin from a time based on a Lunar calendar...
...but observe a Sabbath based on the cycle of the Julian/Gregorian seven day week...
...this is the paradox.

Brotherbrian · 11-30-2009

Im still of the mind that they just "said" they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about it somewhere, and that they just "held everyting a month later" than the traditional jewish calendar. Because an Oct 22 Yom Kippur is unheard of in written history. I also find no evidence for any biblical example of observing a weekly lunar sabbath.

Tree of Life © · 11-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

Im still of the mind that they just "said" they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about it somewhere, and that they just "held everyting a month later" than the traditional jewish calendar. Because an Oct 22 Yom Kippur is unheard of in written history. I also find no evidence for any biblical example of observing a weekly lunar sabbath.

Dear Brother Brian,

Re these words of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

“they just "said" they used the KAraite calendar, because he heard about it somewhere, and that they just "held everyting a month later":”

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life ©]

What you should know re the people at the lead of the Advent movement in the 1840ies is that they were not basing their teaching merely upon any superficial impression coming their way. Allow me to quote a few words as published at the 4 Angel’s Publications web site re their thoroughness and their zeal re these particulars:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Courageous action of Millerites on Jewish Calendar problem.pdf

…that they might correctly determine the close of the 2300 year period, took clear, scholarly thinking, intensive research, extraordinary moral courage, and really heroic, decisive action. They risked all upon this crucial position… (page 1, first paragraph.)

Painstakingly studying the Karaite protest in the Middle Ages against the Rabbinical perversion of the calendar, they at last deliberately and irrevocably accepted, restored, and applied to their time-prophecy problem, the earlier calendation championed by the Karaites. And this they did in defiance of the whole body of Rabbinical scholarship and the general current practice of Jewry…

[From: 4angelspublications.com/pdf/Courageous%20action%20of%20Millerites%20on%20Jewis h%20Calendar%20problem.pdf]

These people were not the average John Does on the street! May I suggest you read the entire article (only 6 pages) at the link given in the quote?

Here’s the real reason that they chose October over and above September for Tishri, the seventh lunar month:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millerite Computation of the October 22 date.pdf

Karaite literature pointed them to Leviticus as teaching that the ancient paschal season had to coincide with ripe barley, which, except in the valley of Jericho, occurs in April-May in Palestine—not in the March period. According to Dalman and others, Palestinian March is a winter month, and has a snow fall equal to January. Hence April is the barley-harvest month in Mediterranean countries, and therefore commonly the paschal month. Sometimes, however, the passover was as late as May. In the Near East, spring and winter stand in close connection, and the spring has strong meteorological contrasts, thus tending a delay in the harvest, and in the beginning of the Jewish year.*

- - - - - - -
*) Gustav Dalman, Arbeit und Sitte in Palästina [Gütersloh, 1928], 3 Band, 1. Hälfte, pp. 305, 306.

[From: 4angelspublications.com/pdf/Millerite%20Computation%20of%20the%20October%2022% 20date.pdf]

Lastly, I certainly agree with you re your last sentence:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brotherbrian

I also find no evidence for any biblical example of observing a weekly lunar sabbath.

On the contrary, in my extensive New Testament chronology studies over the last several years, I’ve found numerous verifiable instances of the New Testament people observing the Seventh-day Sabbath as currently kept by most Seventh-day Adventists, that is, according to the cyclical non-lunar week. Unfortunately, most of the dates provided in the Greek Textus Receptus are not carried over into most modern translations of the New Testament. One example of this is Acts 20:6-7, which passage is giving reference first to the Seventh-day of the week and then to the Seventh Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, both of which fell out, in that year, on Nisan/Abib 21. For all those who may be leery in trusting me on that particular, let me just point out that per Leviticus 23:6-8 both the 15th and the 21st (not the 22nd!) are extra annual Sabbaths, that is, the First Day of Unleavened Bread and the Seventh Day of Unleavened Bread.

It is becoming ever more clear to me that this “Lunar Sabbath argument” is based upon little or nothing of substance. Even so, pursuing matters such as this to the end of the line is usually quite enlightening and well worth while whether or not the original claim holds true… And, if in the end there is gold at the end of the rainbow I wouldn’t want to miss it, would you?

Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

Brotherbrian · 12-01-2009

I had read them once through, when the site was originally posted. I will go back through and re-read them, for posterity's sake. And for historical accuracy, as most SDA's today dont even know what a karaite even is, lol.

pythons · 12-01-2009

What answer is it that you provide to the question of "the great and unanswerable question to the Bible Sabbath" as listed in the 1883 yearbook?

Tree of Life © · 12-01-2009

The Answer to the "anomaly... problem..." re the "31 A.D." and "THE CROSS... [as] the unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath..."

Dear Pythons,

The context of your question, and of my prior answer, is found in this quote from Troubleshooter's post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...highlighted in the Adventist Yearbook 1883

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."
(capitalization emphasis appeared in the original)

A facsimile of the page appears here...
4angelspublications.com/articles/adventist_year_book.jpg

What they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31.

This anomaly remains a problem for which there is no answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

My more comprehensive answer is found in the link also previously provided, that is, thusly provided (Notice the added blue font!: )

Quote:

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Thanks for addressing my questions point by point!

I certainly agree with you re A.D. 31, but more importantly than that...

I believe the Lord of Hosts has seemed fit to bless me with sharing with you the specific and very exact answer to that "anomaly... problem..." which you are referencing by these words of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

This anomaly remains a problem for which there is no answer.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

You'll find it at this link: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/AFewHelpfulQuestions.htm

- Be sure to follow relevant links on that page and you shouldn't find yourself disappointed!

Yet, be prepared to revise some of the erroneous teachings you've been programmed with over the years by the powers that be . . . Exactly as prophecied in Daniel 7:25! And as also referenced by Jesus in Matthew 16:2-3! Cf. also Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

Praise the Lord of Hosts, our Savior!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

To put it succinctly, the answer to the dilemma is found in going to the bottom with things... That is, in doing as the Bereans did, per Acts 17:10-12:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 17:10-12 KJV

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

[Color emphasis added / Tree of Life (c)]

The correct year of the crucifixion is not "31 A.D.," it is 18 CE! And indeed, in applying that year to all the dates provided by the Greek Textus Receptus and other like manuscripts, all the questions re "the Bible Sabbaths," are also being readily answered!

But, don't just take my word for it! Pursue for yourself all the evidence and all the facts brought forwards in support of 18 CE being the correct year and - if you do your own diligent studies - you cannot go wrong! That is, so long as you are walking step by little step, line upon line, and precept upon precept, while holding tightly your hand in the hand of our Savior, Him who is indeed the Great I Am, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you cannot but get ever closer to a realization of all the blessings of the Kingdom of God! Or isn't that obvious to you too?

31 AD was an honest mistake of some very honorable men and women who were indeed doings as the Bereans did, but who didn't as yet have access to all that light which the Lord is providing us today. Yet, without the very noble and diligent work of theirs, we wouldn't be where we are, and we wouldn't be standing upon the shoulder's of giants - as in some important respects we are today!

Praise the Lord, the Creator of the universe!

Consider it! Selah!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-01-2009

Quote:

The correct year of the crucifixion is not "31 A.D.," it is 18 CE! And indeed, in applying that year to all the dates provided by the Greek Textus Receptus and other like manuscripts, all the questions re "the Bible Sabbaths," are also being readily answered!

So you don't argue for a 457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844 prophetic schema for the 2300 days/years Daniel 8:14?

Tree of Life © · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

So you don't argue for a 457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844 prophetic schema for the 2300 days/years Daniel 8:14?

Dear Trouble Shooter,

You are correct. I don't argue for those dates - "457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844" - being the present truth re the 490 years and/or re the 2,300 days. The prophetic interpretation using those particular years have brought many blessings as a way point on our way to the Kingdom of Heaven, but God has now seen fit to give more light upon those issues. Or, at the very least, that's how I perceive it from my perspective.

If you wish to participate in some of the vistas that God has opened to view for me re Daniel's prophecies, you are invited to this GateWay link where you may choose whichever articles of mine that you are most interested in: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm [Make sure you remove all spaces out of my URLs or they won't work!]

Enjoy, but please recognize that this is a paradigm shift of no small proportions relative to conventional dating of history, so you'll have to be willing to accept the necessity of unlearning most of the chronological dates you've formerly come to recognize! Most people stumble and fall on that, sorry to say... As you probably already know, most people prefer to think and be as they think the Joneses do... and because of that they don't have time for much else and are not willing to stand up for something they may perceive as being outside of generally accepted thinking...

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-01-2009

Quote:

Dear Trouble Shooter,

You are correct. I don't argue for those dates - "457BC 37AD 31AD 34AD 1844" - being the present truth re the 490 years and/or re the 2,300 days. The prophetic interpretation using those particular years have brought many blessings as a way point on our way to the Kingdom of Heaven, but God has now seen fit to give more light upon those issues. Or, at the very least, that's how I perceive it from my perspective.

If you wish to participate in some of the vistas that God has opened to view for me re Daniel's prophecies, you are invited to this GateWay link where you may choose whichever articles of mine that you are most interested in: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm [Make sure you remove all spaces out of my URLs or they won't work!]

Enjoy, but please recognize that this is a paradigm shift of no small proportions relative to conventional dating of history, so you'll have to be willing to accept the necessity of unlearning most of the chronological dates you've formerly come to recognize! Most people stumble and fall on that, sorry to say... As you probably already know, most people prefer to think and be as they think the Joneses do... and because of that they don't have time for much else and are not willing to stand up for something they may perceive as being outside of generally accepted thinking...

Here is a bigger paradigm shift for you dear...

The Hebrew word for day 'yown' does not appear in Daniel 8:14...
...so the unbiblical year for a day principle can't be used anyway.

The error was based on the English translation that renders 'ereb' boqer' meaning 'evening morning' as days.

So unless you know of a 'year for an evening morning' principle that I don't know about...
...there is no way to get from 457 or 533 (or any other date) to 1844 anyway.

Tree of Life © · 12-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Here is a bigger paradigm shift for you dear...

The Hebrew word for day 'yown' does not appear in Daniel 8:14...
...so the unbiblical year for a day principle can't be used anyway.

The error was based on the English translation that renders 'ereb' boqer' meaning 'evening morning' as days.

So unless you know of a 'year for an evening morning' principle that I don't know about...
...there is no way to get from 457 or 533 (or any other date) to 1844 anyway.

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Yeah, that's a grand paradigm shift too that I am very well aware of... Whether "bigger" or not I cannot tell.

Allow me to share something in re to that 'evening morning' issue that likely you "don't know about..." before now:

I don't know if you've noticed, but Genesis Chapter One is a chapter of definitions. One of the first definitions there found is the definition for the word 'day.' You'll find it in verse 5, the last sentence. That sentence may be accurately translated as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 1:5 - Tree of Life Time (c) version

...And the dark [period] and the light [period] = one day.

As I said already, I don't reckon "457... 1844..." as present truth.

You might be interested in actually studying my discoveries re the 2300 evenings and mornings. I already gave you the link, didn't I?!

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-02-2009

Quote:

Dear Trouble Shooter,

Yeah, that's a grand paradigm shift too that I am very well aware of... Whether "bigger" or not I cannot tell.

Allow me to share something in re to that 'evening morning' issue that likely you "don't know about..." before now:

I don't know if you've noticed, but Genesis Chapter One is a chapter of definitions. One of the first definitions there found is the definition for the word 'day.' You'll find it in verse 5, the last sentence. That sentence may be accurately translated as follows:

You do know that Moses wrote Genesis and Daniel wrote Daniel (except the chapter Nebuchadnezzar wrote of course)...
...and these two documents were written about 1000 years apart.

The 'ereb boqer' in Genesis is modified by 'yown'...
...yowm can be used to mean 'day', 'a period of time' or a 'year'...
...and how it is applied depends on the context.

In the case of Genesis 'ereb boqer' is modified by 'yowm' which can only mean Moses intended to convey the idea that each period was a 24 hour day.

Daniel uses the word 'yown' six times in Daniel...
...so obviously he knew what the word meant...
...but when describing the duration of the 2300 'ereb boqer' he does not modify this with the word 'yowm'...
...and Daniel never uses the word 'yowm' anywhere in chapter 8...
...so I have to conclude that Daniel meant 'evening and morning'...
...and that these were either 2300 evening and mornings total or 1150 days each with one evening and morning...
...and either way niether means year.

Quote:

As I said already, I don't reckon "457... 1844..." as present truth.

You might be interested in actually studying my discoveries re the 2300 evenings and mornings. I already gave you the link, didn't I?!

I have read the material at the link you have provided...
...it is not 'present truth' but just a new twist on an 'old error'...
...and I am still trying to determine the core motive for your theories.

Question: Tree of Life, if your life was required of you tonight and you were to die in your sleep...
...on what basis would you be assured of 'being right with God'?

How do you believed you are, are being or will be saved?

Tree of Life © · 12-02-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

You do know that Moses wrote Genesis and Daniel wrote Daniel (except the chapter Nebuchadnezzar wrote of course)...
...and these two documents were written about 1000 years apart.

The 'ereb boqer' in Genesis is modified by 'yown'...
...yowm can be used to mean 'day', 'a period of time' or a 'year'...
...and how it is applied depends on the context.

In the case of Genesis 'ereb boqer' is modified by 'yowm' which can only mean Moses intended to convey the idea that each period was a 24 hour day.

Daniel uses the word 'yown' six times in Daniel...
...so obviously he knew what the word meant...
...but when describing the duration of the 2300 'ereb boqer' he does not modify this with the word 'yowm'...
...and Daniel never uses the word 'yowm' anywhere in chapter 8...
...so I have to conclude that Daniel meant 'evening and morning'...
...and that these were either 2300 evening and mornings total or 1150 days each with one evening and morning...
...and either way niether means year.

I have read the material at the link you have provided...
...it is not 'present truth' but just a new twist on an 'old error'...
...and I am still trying to determine the core motive for your theories.

Question: Tree of Life, if your life was required of you tonight and you were to die in your sleep...
...on what basis would you be assured of 'being right with God'?

How do you believed you are, are being or will be saved?

Dear Trouble Shooter,

1.

* * * Quoting Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: * * *

H3117: yome, From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)

* * * End of quote * * *

As you can see from the above definition, applying this same word to the annual cycle, it primarily means, not 'year,' but 'summer.' Yet, it is usually translated 'year.'

2.

Re your comments touching on Genesis 1:5 and especially re your words "modified by...:"

Are you aware of how the English words 'was,''is,' 'is being,' 'will be,' etc. are translated into Hebrew and vice versa?

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

**Troubleshooter** · 12-02-2009

Quote:

* * * Quoting Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: * * *

H3117: yome, From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)

* * * End of quote * * *

As you can see from the above definition, applying this same word to the annual cycle, it primarily means, not 'year,' but 'summer.' Yet, it is usually translated 'year.'

I was quoting Strongs Data...

Strongs Data for 3117 yowm {yome}
Meaning: 1) day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour period).

You were only quoting the unused part of the root of the word definition...

Tree of Life © · 12-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I was quoting Strongs Data...

Strongs Data for 3117 yowm {yome}
Meaning: 1) day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour period).

You were only quoting the unused part of the root of the word definition...

Dear Trouble Shooter,

What's more primary, a root or such as is derived from the root? Did you ever use Strong's for the purpose of finding the common denominator between words in Hebrew with identical spelling? Did you ever study the roots of words for the purpose of determining which translation may be closer to the original and true meaning of a Scriptural passage?

Did you ever consider that the 'hot' portion is that portion of the day when the sun is up and warming us all? Did you ever consider that the 'hot' portion of the year is the summer, or the not infrequent phrasing re one's age in terms of so many summers or in terms of so many springs? Did you ever consider why, in the Scriptures, the word 'yom' (meaning primarily hot, warm) is sometimes translated as 'day,' sometimes as 'years?' Thus, isn't it true that 'yom' as applied to 'a 24-hour day' or to 'a year' is in reality an extension of the most central or focal meaning of that Hebrew word?

Hoping you'll find value and interest in this and other things I am sharing...

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

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10-09-2009	#4
Troubleshooter Super Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 4,580 Reputation: 579	The idea that one day the Sabbath will be some kind of 'test' has no foundation. __________________ - Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

11-23-2009	#8
Brotherbrian Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,995 Reputation: 369	Problems here are mainly that, to my knowledge, Karaite Jews do not observe a "lunar sabbath". They observe the same weekly sabbath of the regular jewish calendar. AFAIK, William Miller basically used HIS idea of what karaite judaism was to justify 1844, namely, the oversimplified idea that "Oh, karaites just hold everything a month later than the traditional jewish calendar". Which is not the case. in the 1800s, 1844 and beyond, karaites were observing the traditional calendar of rabbinic judaism. __________________ "It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs 20:3 Shalom, amigos.... Brian

12-01-2009	#21
Troubleshooter Super Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 4,580 Reputation: 579	Note to self...I must not post late at night... ...obviously 1844 date for the cross was an issue in 1883 and the problem with dates was still significant enough to require a GC conference committee in 1939. __________________ - Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

11-30-2009	#26
Brotherbrian Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,995 Reputation: 369	my grasp of this is still that the karaites never had an issue with the julian-gregorian calendar 7th day sabbath. they observe it to this day, and were in the 1800s. Maybe im missing the point here? __________________ "It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs 20:3 Shalom, amigos.... Brian

10-09-2009	#5
Greg Goodchild Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,340 Reputation: 85	The Sabbath has been a test in every generation. To keep Sabbath, according to the Bible, is a testimony that you are willing to worship the Creator of the universe. The Sabbath was a test in Egypt where Moses was making the Israelites "rest" Sabbatize from their labors. Exodus 5:5 It was a test for Israel in the worship of idols. Israel worshipped the sun in Ezekiel 8:16. It was clearly stated that the Sabbath was a test issue in Jeremiah 17:19-27 It was clearly stated that Sabbath was a test of the sincerity of Israel coming back from the Babylonian captivity in Nehemiah 13:15-21. Sabbath was a test for the Jews in the time of Jesus. The leadership wanted to kill Jesus for His refusal to observe Sabbath like they did. John 5, Matthew 12, John 9. The Jews were willing to kill the Lord of the Sabbath. God says that this same issue will come up again in the forced worship of Rev 13. The true worship will be presented by God's people in Rev 14:7. God's true people will worship Him as the Creator. The Sign of the Creator is the Sabbath. Exodus 31:12-17

12-01-2009	#31
pythons Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 416 Reputation: 92	What answer is it that you provide to the question of "the great and unanswerable question to the Bible Sabbath" as listed in the 1883 yearbook?

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