jaman

Here is an alternative view, discounting the lunar calendar, you need to fast forward through to the main sermon and although he stumbles along a bit he does raise some fairly good points.

I was fairly sold on this at first glance, but now I am not so sure, the spare 30th day just doesn't gel.

As I don't have 100 posts up I cannot post links, so if you google this number you will get the video. 5733727811996903620

p.s. thankyou for the welcome!

pythons

I think they could have gotten away with it had they left it with only saying the year 1844 - what did get them was saying it was on Oct the 22nd.

Gospel_Way

Not at all for the "week" existed well before the introduction of the Jewish religious calendar. Using your line of reasoning here one might conclude that the year only contained 7 months for that is all that exists in the religious calendar. Such a conclusion would be erroneous for there is evidence throughout the Scripture that the Jews had a civil year that ran from fall to fall. The same exact evidence exists in regard to the week. As far back as Gen 29:27,28 we see the "week." And when one considers the 7 day week of Genesis 1 & 2 with its hallowed 7th day in addition to the fact that moon did not come into existence until the 4th day it is untenable to hold that the weekly cycle is dependent upon the moon. It didn't start that way and there are overwhelming amounts of Biblicaly and extrabiblical evidence in support of Saturday Sabbath.

Are you attempting to use this verse to suggest that the Jews forgot the weekly cycle or when their annual feasts were? I certainly hope not. This Bible verse is speaking about events occurring "in Zion." Lamentations is a lament about the destruction that God allowed to overtake Jerusalem because of her sins. This section speaks about the sanctuary being destroyed and that was the place of worship for these feasts and sabbaths. In order for your theory to stand that they had been forgotten you would have to show that postexilic Jews did not know the Sabbath or annual feasts. Such a conclusion cannot be supported by Scripture for Nehemiah, a postexilic Jew, clearly remembers the Sabbath and the manner of God's making it known to Israel.

"And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant" (Neh 9:14)

The plain fact of the matter is this. The 7th day Sabbath is rooted in the Creation of this world. 6 days followed by the 7th day of rest. This 7 day unit is what makes a week. It isn't dependant upon the lunar cycle but rather upon the Divine Pattern established at Creation.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Evidence please!

This is a silly arguement...
...the first month followed the Barley harvest...
...followed by a new month every New Moon until the next Barley harvest...
...so how could there be only seven per solar cycle?

The Lord's calendar for Israel was a Lunar/Solar calendar...not just a Lunar one.


Then show me the evidence for a recurring solar week before Julius Caesar GW...
...it is not enough to just say 'there is evidence'.


Genesis also says of the "the great lights"...
Genesis 1:14 "...let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

Did you ever consider that while God rested on the seventh day from His creative work...
...that for Adam and Eve it was their first day?

True, the creation week did not start with the moon but it did start with a light...
Genesis 1:3 "God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

And Israel's redemptive history also started with a light...
...the light of the New Moon following the Barley harvest every year.


That is really funny...best laugh I've had today...

You do realize GW that your own religious founder William Miller...
...believed that Rabbinic Judaism had forgotten the correct temporal observance of the feasts...
...and used the Lunar calendar to recalculate the Day of Atonement to 22 October 1844...
...so do I think the Jews forgot the Sabbath?...

It is the very basis of your religions identity that they forgot the true times of the feasts...
...but you shortly after adopted Pope Gregory's Saturday Sabbath instead...
...so you also 'forgot' the Sabbath.


God resting after six days of work is rooted in creation...
...the only principle here is that after six days of work you should rest.

This principle was later embedded into the law of Israel...
...they had been slaves for 400 years, on the job 24/7...
...six days on and one day off was the Lord's new rule...
...and it was established on the basis of a Lunar calendar.

Exodus 12:2 "This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you."

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

The evidence has already been listed previously but you appear to have missed it.

The religious calendar wasn’t introduced until the time of the Exodus yet back in the time of the patriarchs we see reference to the week. The Hebrew word is “shabuwa” and its relation to the Hebrew word for seven “sheba” indicates that it is a period of 7 days. The relevant point for our discussion is where did this concept originate from? Even your own quote indicates the answer.

The creation what? The creation week! Hmmm…very interesting indeed!

“Since the number seven runs contrary to every known astronomical measurement of time, the best explanation for its importance and its usage still remains the Biblical account of the divine blessing and sanctification of the seventh day at the completion of creation” (Divine Rest for Human Restlessness pg 29)

The simple fact of the matter is that we have no other Biblical explanation as to where the 7-day week derives from except the creation account. The fact that such a period existed well before the religious calendar’s introduction is an evidence that the 7-day weekly cycle began at creation.

This quote was a part of your response to the existence my point about the “week” being referred to back in Genesis 29. I am at a loss to see how this quote has any affect on the discussion.

The great lights of the heavens are a means of measuring days and years but not “weeks.” This quote fails to address the relevant issue. We are talking about the week here not days or years. Days and years have astronomical basis (i.e. earth’s rotations on its axis and also its rotation around the sun) but the week does not.

Babies are born every day of the week and that day is their 1st day of life. That doesn’t change a single thing about the weekly cycle.

And technically speaking the 7th day was not Adam and Eve’s 1st day because they were created on the 6th day. However the 7th day would have been their first full day of life. I have considered this truth and its implications.

One, it fits quite well with Jesus’ teaching on the Sabbath. He declared that it was made for man! God’s rest and sanctifying of the 7th day were for the benefit of mankind. The fact that Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was the 7th day lines up nicely with them being the recipients and beneficiaries of the Sabbath rest.

Also the fact that the Bible speaks of this day as the 7th day while from the human perspective it would have seemed like the 1st day is an indication that the week is a manifestation of God’s sovereignty over time. There is no human rationale behind it, the week stands on God’s creative time-sequence of 6 days labor followed by the 7th day rest.

Now this is a very interesting quote. Because light started the creation week and light started Israel’s redemptive history therefore…what? Your point has been left incomplete. Are you trying to say that this proves that the week ought to begin with the light of the new moon?

If so, there are many things to say in response:

1) The light that started the creation week was not the light of the moon therefore it is a fallacy to say that the light of the moon should be the starting point for the week. The parallel does not line up. If you could show that the moon began the creation week then your case would be made but that is not the case. The moon came into existence on the 4th day brother, not the 1st.

2) Israel’s redemptive history did not begin as a result of the light of the new moon, rather it was God’s miraculous deliverance of Israel from Egypt that stands as the starting point for the cycle. Apart from this act there would be no significance and no 1st month in the religious calendar.

Look closely at the continuation of my post Troubleshooter:

It appears that you are attempting to use Lamentations 2:6 as if it were a prophecy that the Lord knew or planned that the Sabbath would be forgotten. Else how can you say that this verse makes a joke out of the Sabbath/Sunday debate? This is a horrible corruption of Scripture. Not only does it violate the immediate context it is contrary to the fact that the returning Jews knew the Sabbath.

What’s even worse is that if this were the case (that Lam 2:6 shows that the Sabbath had been forgotten) then you would have to hold that the Lord Jesus Christ had a custom of going to the synagogue on the wrong day and He never corrected the Jews about it!

“And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read..” (Luke 4:16)

What are you going to say? That the Jews remembered the proper day somewhere between the exile and the Lord’s time on earth?

Even more so, in the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ claimed Lordship over the Sabbath day. What did He get the wrong one? God forbid!

“And He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. (Mark 2:27,28)

Now what? Are you going to say that Jesus got the wrong day? I certainly hope not! His presence and affirmation of the weekly 7th day Sabbath are an irrefutable proof to the validity of the creation Sabbath.

Now I suppose you will want to argue that Jesus was speaking about a lunar Sabbath. Such an argument is unfounded because the Bible and contemporary historical documents from the 1st century show beyond a shadow of a doubt that the weekly Sabbath is Jesus’ day was what we now call Saturday.

“And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath” (Mark 15:42)

“And they returned and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment: Now upon the first day of the week…” (Luke 23:56; 24:1)

The Scriptures are very clear that Jesus died on a Friday (preparation) was in the tomb on Saturday (the Sabbath) and arose on Sunday (1st day of the week).

Now as an extra line of evidence that the 7th day Sabbath was Saturday I offer the writings of several Roman historians.

Cassius Dio (155-229 AD) writing about a battle against the Jews in 63 BC

"Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it.
As it was, they made an excavation of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall. The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defense, and all the wealth was plundered. The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away." Cassius Dio Roman History 37.16.1-4

The same author now writing about a battle in 36 BC that brought Herod to power:

"The Jews, indeed, had done much injury to the Romans, but they suffered far more themselves. The first of them to be captured were those who were fighting for the precinct of their god, and then the rest on the day even then called the day of Saturn. And so excessive were they in their devotion to religion that the first set of prisoners, those who had been captured along with the temple, obtained leave from Sosius, when the day of Saturn came round again, and went up into the temple and there performed all the customary rites, together with the rest of the people. These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,— a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans,— and afterwards slew him." Cassius Dio Roman History 49.22.4-6

Frontinus, a Roman soldier writing in 84 AD:

"The deified Augustus Vespasian attacked the Jews on the day of Saturn, a day on which it is sinful for them to do any business." Frontinus Stratagem 2.1.17.

Approx. 100 AD Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian and senator writing about the Jews custom of Sabbath-keeping speculates the reason why:

They are said to have devoted the seventh day to rest, because that day brought an end to their troubles. Later, finding idleness alluring, they gave up the seventh year as well to sloth. Others maintain that they do this in honor of Saturn; either because their religious principles are derived from the Idaei, who are supposed to have been driven out with Saturn and become the ancestors of the Jewish people; or else because, of the seven constellations which govern the lives of men, the star of Saturn moves in the topmost orbit and exercises peculiar influence, and also because most of the heavenly bodies move round their courses in multiples of seven. (From The Histories, Book V)

These 1st century Roman quotes show that the Jews kept holy what the Romans referred to as the day of Saturn (in modern terms Saturday). There are other lines of evidence that could be presented but our case has been made sufficiently.

The 7th day Sabbath in Jesus’ day was Saturday. Again Troubleshooter, do you think the Savior claimed Lordship over the wrong day?

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Gospel_Way

Now moving on to another issue. Let’s talk about William Miller.

First off, William Miller is not the founder of the SDA denomination nor was he the one who calculated Oct 22, 1844. The primary source behind Oct. 22, 1844 was a gentleman by the name of Samuel Snow.

Secondly, Snow used the system of reckoning that was being practiced in his day by Karaite Judaism. The reason for this is because Rabbinic Judaism, sometime after the 2nd century, replaced the Biblical method for computing the festivals with a mathematical system tied to the equinox. They disregarded the state of the barley harvest.

Oh and by the way when I say the 2nd century I am being very generous here because “according to tradition…the rabbinical calendar was introduced in the 4th century because of the need of the scattered Jews in other lands to calculate the calendar without awaiting the announcements from the Palestinian rabbis about the new moon or the Judean barley harvest” (SDA BC Vol 5 pg 237)

Thirdly, the correct Biblical method whereby to determine the proper time for the feasts was not forgotten, just ignored. The Word of God was still present but the Rabbinic Jews had disregarded it for their tradition tied to the equinox.

Again you are mistaken. Rabbinic Judaism chose to ignore the correct method for determining the times of the feast. Karaite Judaism in the 1840’s were still using the Biblical method for determining the time.

“Now there is a dispute between the Rabinical, and the Caraite Jews, as to the correct time of commencing the year. . . . The Caraite Jews on the contrary, still adhere to the letter of the Mosaic, and commence with the new moon nearest the barley harvest in Judea; and which is one moon later than the Rabinical year. (Signs of the Times; June 21, 1843; p. 123)

And finally, I am not the one who has forgotten the Sabbath that God said to “Remember.” The 7th day Sabbath in Jesus’ day was clearly Saturday. This is seen quite clearly from the sequence of the preparation day, Sabbath followed by the 1st day of the week and the quotes from Roman historians in my previous post.

Unless you believe Troubleshooter that Jesus Christ went to the synagogue on the wrong day or that He claimed Lordship over the wrong day then the case is settled beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Okay so the Divine pattern of 6 days of work followed by the 7th day of rest presents a principle that “after six days of work you should rest.” When did mankind become responsible to this principle? You speak of the creation narrative as presenting a cycle of six days of work followed by a 7th of rest but you ignore the numerical sequence of the week. If there are 7 days in the week, which there are, then the cycle is locked down 1,2,3,4,5,6, 7th day rest then repeat,…

Okay, you have gotten yourself into trouble here. So the principle of six days work followed by a 7th of rest was embedded into the law of Israel. And it is your contention that it was established on the basis of a lunar calendar.

Problem # 1: The lunar cycle of 29.5 days does not correspond with a repeating weekly cycle of 7 days. There would be 1 or 2 extra days each month that would break the cycle. How can this pattern be followed on a lunar basis if after the last 7th day Sabbath in the cycle there are extra days? Should the extra days be work days or extra sabbath days? The silence of the Scripture on this matter indicates that no such problem ever existed.

Here’s what you really need and if you had a Bible verse that said this I would have no contention with you:

"On the day following the new moon of each month for six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. You shall do this for four weeks. Then, depending on whether the new month has started, you shall not engage in commerce or paid work for 1 or 2 days. Then you shall reset your week into the 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest' pattern."

Unfortunately brother, no such verse exists!

Problem # 2: The Scripture use the Sabbath as a means of counting time that works only if it runs independently of the lunar cycle.

“And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days: and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD” (Lev 23:15,16)

Notice that this Bible verse speaks of 7 Sabbaths being complete. 7 Sabbaths passing (7 days per week) in a week independent of the lunar cycle would be 49 days and then the 50th day would be the day following the last of the 7 Sabbaths. This is why the Scriptures speaks of the day of Pentecost (from the Greek “Pentekoste” which means the 50th day)

Now let's see what this would look like if the weekly cycle with the corresponding 7th day Sabbath was dependent on the lunar cycle. The small numbers will indicate the counting of 50 days from the day after the Sabbath during the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

The numbers below represent the 7th day Sabbath based on the lunar calendar. The Sabbath would fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th of each month because the 1st day starts with the sighting of the new moon. The Sabbath days using this system are highlighted in red. Starting from the 15th day of the 1st month, via Leviticus 23, we begin counting off our 50 days. The day count (we need 50) is represented by the green numbers.

Abib (First Month)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 (1st day of feast)
161 172 183 194 205 216 227
238 249 2510 2611 2712 2813 2914
3015

116 217 318 419 520 621 722 823
924 1025 1126 1227 1328 1429 1530
1631 1732 1833 1934 2035 2136 2237
2338 2439 2540 2641 2742 2843 2944

145 246 347 448 549 650 7 8

As you can see in the above calendar, the Feast of Weeks does not fit at all into the Lunar Sabbath model. Using the lunar cycle, 50 days “from the morrow after the Sabbath” brings us to only 6 complete Sabbaths. Why? Because 7 day weeks do not fit 7 times into 50 days if they are derived from new moons. Well why not? Because a month on average is 29.5 days long. You have an average of 1.5 extra days per month! Thus one is going to be short a few days of the required 50!

Now remember in the Bible, God said that when we count 50 days, we will count "to the day after the seventh Sabbath." (NIV). In the above Lunar Sabbath calendar, it is impossible for the 50th day to be "the day after the seventh Sabbath." In fact it could never be "the day after the seventh Sabbath" if there were lunar Sabbaths.

Problem # 3: The Sabbath/manna story.

If the 7th day Sabbath was determined upon the lunar cycle then we have another problem. According to Exodus 16 God promised to rain manna out of heaven for His people in the wilderness to test them to see whether or not “they will walk in My law”. They were to gather manna at “a certain rate every day” but “on the sixth day…it shall be twice as much as they gather daily” (Ex 16:4,5)

After the six days of gathering (with a double portion on the 6th day) Moses declared to the people “This is that which the LORD hath said, “Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the LORD…Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath in it there shall be none…let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested the seventh day” (Ex 16:23,26, 29,30)

These Bible verses clearly show us that the 7th day is the holy Sabbath of the LORD. Moses’ instructions show us that the circular nature of the manna falling and it is very clear that no manna fell every 7th day (Sabbath).

Now if the LORD’s Sabbath was determined on the lunar cycle then what happened on the 29th or 30th day of the month? There would be an extra day or two every month that would break the 7-day cycle. Did God rain manna on those days until the next new moon was sighted and then the 7 day cycle of manna started up again?

Again here’s what you need:

"On the day following the new moon of each month for six days you shall gather manna, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God and there will be no manna. You shall gather a double portion of the manna on the 6th day for four weeks. Then, you for the next 1 or 2 days depending on the month I will send some extra manna but don’t count these days as a part of the 6 day gathering cycle. Then once the new moon has been sighted you shall reset your week into the 'Six days you shall gather manna, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and there will be no manna' pattern."

Again brother no such verse exists.

Troubleshooter I could keep on going with other lines of evidence but the case is overwhelmingly clear. Jesus had the right day! The 7th day Sabbath is Saturday. The week runs independently of the lunar cycle. It has no astronomical basis and stands as a token of God’s sovereignty over time.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

commen tater

If the week has no astronimical basis, then why on earth do you determine that the sabbath starts and ends with sundown? God is indeed sovereign over time, but if you don't think that your understanding of the sabbath is directly tied to seconds, minutes, hours-all of which base their frame of reference to this one little crazy planet and solar system, well, all I can say is "pshaw".

Gospel_Way

Dear Commen Tater,

Thank you for your question. I think you have missed my point here. First off let me define what I mean by astronomical basis. Let’s start with the day. The 24 hr. day is based on the earth completing one rotation on its axis. The month is loosely based on the moon’s rotation around the earth (approx. 29.5 days) and the year is based on the earth’s orbit around the sun (approx. 365 ¼ days). Now as for seconds, minutes and hours that is a whole other story. To the best of my knowledge (and I’m speaking off the top of my head here) they originate with the Babylonians. They seem to be a human invention, a way of referencing smaller points of time (i.e. seconds, minutes, hours) within the larger units that God created (i.e. day, week, month, year)

Now the week is composed of 7 days. Yes the individual “days” that make up the week do have an astronomical basis but there is no astronomical phenomenon that justifies putting 7 of them together to equal a 1 week. Apart from the creation narrative there really is no good reason for having a week. That’s my point here.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

jaman

If the week days were numbered seperately from the month days, so that each day was named two numbers, considering that is what people who adhere to a 7 day weekly cycle are actually claiming, is there any historical evidence of this?

For instance Wednesday known as the number 4 in the hebrew is also any other number between 1 - 30 concurrently in any one month?

This scenario seems considerably more complex, illogical and un-workable to the point of utter confusion when compared to a lunar month cycle beginning with each new moon.

Troubleshooter

I will address this in pieces as I have limited time now...
...and have dinner with clientele this evening.

Samuel Snow was a Millerite, William Miller was not a Snowite...
...therefore I am using using William Miller broadly as the leader of the organization...
...both William and Samuel used a Karaite calendar reckoning to establish Jesus second coming in 1844...
...William set April 18 and Samuel from within the Millerite movement made a second guess as 22 October 1844...
...do you have evidence that William did not agree with Samuel's timesetting effort?..
...whatever the case, nothing happened then either.

Jesus did not return in 1844 and William Miller accepted he was wrong about the date...
...although, until his death, William believed in Jesus eventual return as do I.

Seventh-day Adventism grew out of the Millerite movement...
...the cognitive dissonant ones who remained made up a cleverly devised tale...
...and the rest is history.

William Miller was the founder of the Millerite movement...
...Seventh-day Adventism grew out of the Millerite movement...
...established by those who could not admit like William Miller that they were wrong.

If there had been no Millerite movement there would be no Seventh-day Adventism.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

The change was at first gradual due to many factors...
...it occurred as you suggest somewhere between the second to the fourth century...
...but it involved both the calculation of the feasts...
...and the change from a lunar to a successive weekly sabbath.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

The principle of six days labor followed by a 7th of rest was embedded in the law for Israel...
...but there is no mention that the Sabbaths had to be successive.


The principle in the law is six days labor followed by a rest on day seven...
...so if you have one or two days labor at the end of the month...
...then the conditions of the principle in the law would not apply.

That is also why the first day of the month is called a 'holy convocation' but never 'a Sabbath'...
...but is always a rest day.

Leviticus 23:7 "In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein."

I will answer your Problem #2 separately.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Lol! Oh this is rich. You need a non-existant verse in order for this to stand.

"On the day following the new moon of each month for six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. You shall do this for four weeks. Then, depending on when the new month happens you shall (or shall not) engage in commerce or paid work for 1 or 2 days. Then you shall reset your week into the 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest' pattern.

Next you're going to tell me that the manna cycle wasn't successive either. 6 days of manna (double-portion on the 6th day) rest on the 7th. (Repeat 4 times) then wait one or two days for the new moon (no manna on these days or better yet there is manna but don't count the collection as a part of the cycle on these days) then repeat the cycle again. Lol! Again you are missing some very key verses that would establish this.

"On the day following the new moon of each month for six days you shall gather manna, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God and there will not be manna. You shall gather a double portion of the manna on the 6th day for four weeks. Then, for the next 1 or 2 days after that last Sabbath, depending on the month, I will send some extra manna but don’t count these days as a part of the 6 day gathering cycle. Then once the new moon has been sighted you shall reset your week into the 'Six days you shall gather manna, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and there will be no manna' pattern."

I don't even know where to begin in refuting you. If the principle embedded in the law doesn't imply sucession then pray tell why do you hold to a succession even within your lunar system? Let's be honest, you hold to repeated 7th day Sabbaths in a lunar system but you just don't want the 7 day cycle to repeat weekly (1-7, 1-7, 1-7 etc,...). You need a break somehow because the week doesn't fit neatly into the month so now you are creating some rules for these 1 or 2 extra days." The very fact that they are not there in the Bible shatters your entire theory.

Once again this is absurd. The Bible says nothing about "one or two days" of labor that don't count as a part of the six. As they say "necessity is the mother of invention."

Again you are in error here. Leviticus 23:7 is not talking about the first day of the month. Look at the context.

"In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is a holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein" (Lev 23:5-8)

This passage explains that the 1st and 7th day of the 7 day feast of unleavened bread are holy convocations. We are talking about the 15th and 21st days of the 1st month here, not the 1st day of the 1st month.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

However, it is the theory your religious system was founded on GW...
...and it remains your paradox.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

The solution is in the text...

"Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days..."

You are trying to make 7 Sabbaths = 50 days...
...try counting 7 Lunar Sabbaths + 50 days.

I will provide you with the detail shortly.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

GW, I said I would inform you of partially answered posts...
...I am in the process of creating a list of Israel's post-Exodus events that specify days and dates...
...and I will apply these to calendars...
...I have reviewed various works of this sort but disagree with some of their assumptions...
...so I will allow scripture to unfold itself...
...and may start a new thread if the conclusions go where I suspect they will.

I think there is sufficient third part witness and support to warrant this investigation.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

Genesis was written by Moses after the Exodus.

The Hebrew word shabuwa is a 'seven' of something (days, years)...
...and historically the only time it is used pre-Exodus is in Gen 29:27,28...
...which is specifically a reference to seven of years...
...Jacob labored for Laban seven years for Rachel but was given Leah...
...and then labored another seven years for Rachel.

The fact that it means 'years' is clearly stated in the text.

Genesis 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.


Creation was six days and God rested from creating on the seventh 'yowm'...
...I agree with this...
...what you have no evidence for is that this was the beginning of a repeating seven day cycle.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

And what is your point here? The events that he is describing are events from before the Exodus. Now unless you believe that Moses recorded history inaccurately you have no point.

“The Hebrew word for “week,” ‘shabuwa’ was derived from the word for ‘seven,’ ‘sheba.” However it was derived as a specialized term to be applied only to the unit of time consisting of seven days, that is, the ‘week.” A different vocalization was utilized for this specialization. This difference is evident even in unpointed Hebrew texts since the Hebrew letter ‘waw’ was consistently written as the u-vowel letter in this particular word. This spelling is consistend in the Bible as well as in all six of the texts form Qumran in which this word has appeared. To give this word only a numerical value...confuses its etymological origin with its derived form and function” The usage of ‘shabuwa’ “in Daniel, elsewhere in the OT, in extrabilical Hebrew, and in cognate Semitic languages all indicate that this word should be translated as ‘weeks.’ No support can be obtained from any of these sources for translating this word any other way than as ‘weeks.’” (SSPI pg 90, 91)

Let’s look at these verses more fully and the truth will become apparent:

“And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, ‘What is this thou hast done unto me? Did not I serve with thee for Rachel? Wherefore then has thou beguiled me? And Laban said, ‘It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. Fulfill her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also. And Laban gave to Rachel his daugher Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid. And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah and served with him yet seven other years” (Gen 29:25-30)

What do we see here:

1) When Jacob woke up he was upset that he had been deceived into marrying Leah
2) Laban asked him to fulfill her (Leah’s) week
3) He promised Rachel to Jacob for another 7 years service
4) Jacob fulfilled Leah’s week
5) He received Rachel as his wife after he fulfilled the week
6) He then served another seven years

“Wedding feasts customarily lasted one week (See Judges 14:12) and Jacob was to have Rachel also at the close of Leah’s marital festivities…It is plain that Jacob did not serve another seven years before Rachel became his wife. This occurred at the close of Leah’s festal week.” (SDABC Gen 29:27,28)

Your attempt to turn the “week” here into a “seven” of something, namely years falls flat. It confuses the Hebrew term and, as illustrated above, it does not fit the context. Therefore the “shabuwa” of Genesis 29 is a week. Again we have no other explanation as to where the patriarchs would have derived this period from except the creation story.

Now as for the rest of my post, I would be interested to see your response to several other points I raised.

Point 1: Using the New Testament and Roman historians I displayed evidence that the 7th day Sabbath that Jesus claimed Lordship over was Saturday. Do you disagree? Is so why?

Point 2: You asserted your belief that the principle of 6 days work/7th day rest operated on the basis of a Lunar calendar. This does not work Biblically.

Do you have a solution for any of these problems?

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

What is the full name for SSPI?

Strongs data...
7620 shabuwa` {shaw-boo'-ah}
Meaning: 1) seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week 1a) period of seven days, a week 1a1) Feast of Weeks 1b) heptad, seven (of years).

It's the same word used in Daniel 9:27 which you would of course interpret to means years.

The Genesis 29 reference is clearly a play on 'seven' days/years.

This still proves nothing about how the weeks were determined...
...were they successive weeks or determined by lunar reckoning?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

That the 'preparation day' equals a Friday...
...that Sabbath always equals Saturday...
...and the 'first day' always refers to a Sunday...
...is an assumption that can not be supported from scripture.


Frontinus and Cassius Dio probably made the same flawed assumption you are making...
...Julius Caesar introduced the Julian calendar in 46 BC...
...Frontinus, a Roman military officer and tactician wrote about 103 A.D...
...Dio Cassius wrote around 200 A.D...
...the Julian reckoning of days would have been regarded as the norm by these Romans...
...and they associated a Saturday with the Jewish Sabbath.

However, earlier Jewish historians reveal a different story...

Philo

Philo (20 BC - 50 AD) is the most contempory to Jesus...
...he wrote...

“Again, the periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven, that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. At all events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their preservation in accordance with this number seven. … Accordingly, on the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had made.”
Philo - Allegorical Interpretation, 1 IV (8)

Philo makes a clear connection between lunar 'weeks' and 'creation week'.

Philo's comments are descriptive of Jewish practice...
...like the following concerning Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles.

“But to the seventh day of the week he has assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown, and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced”
Philo - The Decalogue XXX (159)

Scripture also clearly states that Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles begin on the 15th day of their respective months.

Leviticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Leviticus 23:34 The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

So Philo is confirming that the 15th of the month is the seventh day of the week every year...
...and the following reference establishes that it is always when the moon is full.

"And this feast is begun on the fifteenth day of the month, in the middle of the month, on the day on which the moon is full of light, in consequence on the providence of Elohim taking care that there shall be no darkness on that day.”
Philo’s Special Laws II, The Fifth Festival, Section XXVIII (155)

This coincidence of a weekly sabbath, 15th day of the month and a full moon every year...
...is simply not possible using a Julian/Gregorian calendar.


Elsewhere Philo confirms that weeks are determined by phases of the moon...

“…there is one principle of reason by which the moon waxes and wanes in equal intervals, both as it increases and diminishes in illumination; the seven lambs because it receives the perfect shapes in periods of seven days—the half-moon in the first seven day period after its conjunction with the sun, full moon in the second; and when it makes its return again, the first is to half-moon, then it ceases at its conjunction with the sun.”
Philo - Special Laws I. (178)

...and he expresses it again in an analogy...

“For it is said in the Scripture: On the tenth day of this month let each of them take a sheep according to his house; in order that from the tenth, there may be consecrated to the tenth, that is to Elohim, the sacrifices which have been preserved in the soul, which is illuminated in two portions out of the three, until it is entirely changed in every part, and becomes a heavenly brilliancy like a full moon, at the height of its increase at the end of the second week”.
Philo - On Mating with the Preliminary Studies, XIX (102)

Q: The second week of what?
A: The second week of the lunar month.

Similar references can be cited from Josephus...one example...

The Antiquities of the Jews, Chapter 10, section 5

“In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of the year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians, and law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this Passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the Passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month and continued seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread… But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day, they do not touch them. …. They take a handful of ears, and dry them, then beat them small and purge the barley from the bran; they then bring one tenth deal to the altar, to Elohim; and, casting one handful of it upon the fire they leaven the rest for use of the priest; and after this it is that they may publicly or privately reap their harvest.”

Josephus is writing here to a non-Jewish audience...
...and clearly states the numbering of days according to a 'lunar month'.


So GW, who would know more about these things...
...a couple of later Romans or the witness of two contempory Jewish historians?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Lol! Are you really quoting Philo of Alexandria to prove your theory? It seems like you are grasping at straws here brother. Are you aware of who Philo is and what type of methodology he used in his approach to Scripture? If you don’t know let me tell you. Philo is basically the father of allegorizing away the meaning of Scripture. He is certainly one of the most creative exegete of Scripture but he is also one of the least accurate ones.

Next up let’s deal with your Josephus quote. You have quoted Josephus here as if it somehow disproved the weekly 7th day Sabbath being Saturday. The quote does nothing of the sort. He is talking about the Passover occurring on the 14th day of the lunar month etc,..

Yes Josephus numbers days according to a lunar month but that does not mean that the week was not being run consecutively and independently. For example, the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday) can fall on any numbered day of the month (the 1st, 2nd 3rd, etc,..). It runs consecutively but independently of the number of days in the month.

There is so much more to say here because I think I can see where you are having a miscomprehension of the issue but I think I’m going to leave this one for you to figure out on your own.

Oh and by the way, are you aware that the same author, Josephus, speaks of the Jews taking a rest from work as occurring every seventh day?

“…and gave a signal beforehand with a trumpet, at the beginning of every seventh day, in the evening twilight, as also at the evening when that day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to stop work, and when they were to go to work again” (War of the Jews 4:582)

Stop and think about this Troubleshooter! The Sabbath cannot happen “every seventh day” in a lunar system. Why not? Because the month is 29.5 days. There’s going to be an extra day or two every month that will break the “every seventh day” cycle.

Now amazingly enough you have attempted to discredit the multitude of Roman historians who witness that in the 1st century BC and 1st century AD the 7th day Sabbath of the Jews was the same thing as the day of Saturn. You have called it a “flawed assumption” but I have to question. Do you think that they recorded a lie? They wrote what they did because the documents they examined (in the case of Cassius Dio) indicated that the Jews kept that day. Not only that but their observations (as in the case of Frontinus) confirmed the practice.

And Jospehus, who you quoted before, actually testifies to the validity of the Roman witness on the matter. He makes it clear that the 7td day Sabbath was well understood by the Grecians and barbarians.

"The multitude of mankind itself have had a great inclination for a long time to follow our religious observances; for there is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come . . . As God himself pervades all the world, so hath our law passed through all the world also" (Against Apion, 2, 40).

And if all of this wasn’t enough. I will provide some more evidence, this time from the Talmud, that indicates the impossibility of the weekly 7th day Sabbath being a lunar Sabbath:

"R. Zera replied: The New Moon is different from a festival - Since its mention is included in the benediction on the sanctity of the day in the morning and evening prayers it is also included in that of the additional prayer. But do Beth Shammai uphold the view that the mention of the New Moon is to be included? Was it not in fact taught: If a New Moon falls on a Sabbath, Beth Shammai ruled: One recites in his additional prayer eight benedictions and Beth Hillel ruled: Seven? This is indeed a difficulty." (Talmud- Mas. Eiruvin 40b)

Please pay attention to this quote from the Talmud. It deals with the practice of “Beth Shammai” if the new moon fell on a Sabbath. (By the way Shammai was a Jewish scholar who lived from 50 BC to 30 AD.) Troubleshooter if the Jews had a weekly Sabbath based on the lunar cycle then a new moon could have never fallen on a Sabbath because that would be the first day of the 7 day week! If the 7th day Sabbath ran consecutively yet independant from the lunar cycle then this would happen. This quote from the Talmud blows a whole in your whole theory. Let’s look at another one.

“The bones and the sinews and the nothar of the pashal lamb are to be burnt on the sixteenth. If the sixteenth falls on the Sabbath they are to be burnt on the seventheenth, because they do not override either the Sabbath or the festival.” (Talmud- Pesachim 83a)

Again, if there was a lunar Sabbath it is impossible for the Sabbath to fall on the sixteenth! Yet here we see in the Talmud the possibility acknowledged and instruction is given as to what ought to be done when it happens.

Now in regard to your questions.

I am sorry on this one. I though I had listed it out fully once before but apparently not. The full title is “Selected Studies on Prophetic Interpretation” and it is by William H. Shea.

Next up you still haven’t acknowledged the inherent Biblical problems with a lunar week. 3 of the problems are explained in my post entitled “Now moving on to another issue. Let’s…”

You have failed to address the contextual issues of Genesis 29:25-30 which shows that the “week” there means just that a “week.” This can be found in my post entitled “And what is your point here? The events…”

I have noticed that you continually ignore the points that refute your theory. We have gone through quite a bit here. I have shown you how a plausible theory of how the Friday, Sabbath, Sunday sequence fits in with 31 AD when we consider that the religious festivals began with the sighting of the new moon and not the astronomical new moon. I have also shown mathematical evidence as to why a lunar week doesn’t work (the month is 29.5 days long) along with practical Biblical examples where a lunar Sabbath simply cannot fit (i.e. Leviticus 23, Exodus 16) , I also have the witness of Roman historians and the witness of the Talmud. And I suppose if I keep researching I could find even more lines of evidence.

There are so many points that I have raised that disprove your theory which you have not addressed that, as of the moment, I am convinced that you cannot address them. Until you answer said the questions from the previous posts there is really no point in my continuing this dialogue with you. I mean no offense but it’s like talking to a broken record. Like they say “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” I hope somehow, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, you will re-examine this issue considering the weight of all of the evidence.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

I have been answering you GW as time allows...
...if I have not addressed something in this thread I will get to it...
...maybe I should let you know if I have only partially answered one of you posts.

I also try to determine what is evidence and what is you personal opinion or SDA presupposition...
...I want to consider your objections for the opportunity to test them against Holy Writ and the historical record.

To be fair you can be very selective about what you answer...
...for example, where is the new thread you promised on proving the validity of a 31 AD crucifixion?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Fair enough Troubleshooter, the reason why I wrote you an ultimatum here is because you have not acknowledged the logical points and evidences that contradict your theory. I think the only thing that you have going for you on this one is Philo and he isn't a very reliable source due to his notoriously off-based allegorical interpretations.

Honestly I have been debating on whether or not it is even worthwhile to post the information. The fact that, prior to this point, you have not acknowledged or dealt with the majority of the issues I have raised regarding the lunar Sabbath has not left me with a great deal of hope regarding any presentation I might make about the Daniel 9 timeline. This does not mean that I have neglected to research the matter. As of right now I have about 10 pages of material regarding 457 BC as being the 7th year of Artaxerxes. Understanding this material can be quite tedious because it has to do with several ancient calendars and the various systems of dating (ascension and non-ascension year reckoning) used in the ancient world. Considering your prior responses to my material I have not seen it as a worthwhile investment of my time to explain it all out. Again, I mean no offense but your neglect of the various lines of evidence I have presented regarding 31 AD and lunar Sabbaths sets a precedent. Now since you have made it clear that you will get to it, I will await your response. My waiting will serve 2 purposes. It will allow for me to evaluate whether or not you deal rationally with the evidence or if you are simply looking for a way to promote lunar Sabbaths despite the evidences to the contrary. Secondly, it will allow me to continue my research regarding Daniel 9 so that I can present a more-detailed than average presentation on the subject.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Demonstrate to me from scripture GW for where a...
...Friday = preparation day...
...Saturday = Sabbath...
...Sunday = 1st day of the week.

You have made this assumption...
...and much of Christendom has made this assumption...
...but prove it to me from scripture.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Re-examine the former posts and think about them. Math proves that the weekly 7-day cycle ran consecutively yet independently of the lunar cycle. All of the evidence that you need is already posted and I am not going to repeat myself.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Philo of Alexandria is as legitimate a historical source as Frontinus and Cassius Dio.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

Every 'seventh-day' on a Lunar calendar always falls on day 8, 15, 22 and 29.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

Gospel Way,

If April 27, 31 A.D. is the date of the Crucifixion "according to mathematics" and mathematics prove that the "full Moon" for April that year was on the 25th, a Wednesday then how is this not a paradox given that the Millerites claimed that Christ was crucified on a Friday after the full Moon?

pythons

I had forgot to add that any moon calendar for April of 31 A.D. shows that the moon was in "Waning Gibbous" at the date demanded by the I.J. Doctrine ( 27 April 31 A.D.). Saturday, April 28 shows only 85.21 % illumination. How does this pass off as a "full moon"?

Here was the 2009 Passover moon



2005


Undated Passover Moon in Tiberias rising over Galilee


Here is Ellen Whites "Passover Moon" Waning Gibbous

Troubleshooter

You have made a good point here Pythons...
...in our modern artificially lit cities the light and phases of the moon are not closely observed by ordinary citizens...
...but in the first century changes in the moon would have been noticed by everyone.

Since starting this investigation I have been observing the phases of the moon...
...with the aid of a moon phase chart even my untrained eye can see the difference between a full moon and it waning three and four days past full.

It is an extraordinary claim that the observation of first century Jewish officials calculation of Passover would have been out by 15%.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

The moon tonight Saturday 25th GMT+10 is three days into the new moon...
...go outside and have a look tonight...
...this is the third day of the New Moon...
...and approximately 16% of the New Moon is showing...
...this is how far into the New Moon Hebrews would have had to miscalculate the New Moon...
...to have had a Passover coincide with a Saturday/Sabbath in 31 AD.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

Yeah, which isn't reasonable to believe in the least.

Troubleshooter

Has anyone been outside to see the moon?...
...it is midday here 'down-under' so it must be dark enough on your side of the world right now.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

Jesus is not the paradox Greg...
...the basis for SDAism's origin and choice of Sabbath is the paradox.
Greg - The origin of the Sabbath was established by Christ in the Creation and by Christ in the Crucifixtion. The SDAs did not establish the Sabbath, Jesus did.

The year 31 AD may well be the crucifixion year...
...and it is easily establish on the basis of a Lunar Sabbath.
Greg - Does "may well be he crucifixtion year" mean you are in agreement?

However, this confirmation has a downside...
...it destroys the basis of a perpetual Sabbath based on a Gregorian Lunar calendar.
Greg - Again the assumption is that a calendar establishes the Sabbath. Jesus, the Lord of Calendars established the SAbbath, not man, not SDAs.

SDA's criticize Roman Catholicism for changing the Sabbath...
...but are guilty of the same error.
Greg - If SDAs tried to undo what Jesus has already done then you would be correct. SDAs are just following what Jesus said to do.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Greg - Error is never funny.

Troubleshooter

It is 8:50 pm on the East coast of Australia and the Moon is 98% full...
...so it will be completely full by the time anyone in the America's and Britain see it tonight.



Go out and have a look at it tonight and remember what a full-Moon looks like.


The Moon for April of 31 AD was in 'Waning Gibbous' at the date demanded by the 31 AD crucifixion date...
...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.

Saturday, April 28 shows only 85.21 % illumination.
In a couple of days I will alert you to when the Moon is in this phase.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

jaman

TS I didn't realise you were in Australia, btw did you watch the doco on SBS2 last Friday night on the death of John the Baptist?

The makers tend to believe that he was beheaded in the year 35 AD due to other corresponding historical events, which puts the crucifiction Of Jesus in the year 36 AD.

Can you work out what the gregorian weekly calendar days would be for this theory of AD 36?

Troubleshooter

Big country, few people, lots of water between here and anywhere else...
...are you also an Aussie?

Salome: The Kiss of Death...
...no missed it...I will see if I can get a copy.

I would like to review their reasoning...
...it depends whether tehy are calculating using a Julian/Gregorian calendar or a luni/solar one.

If the luni/solar calendar is independant of the Julian...
...the crucifixion could have been in any year that Pontius Pilate was Roman procurator of Judea...
...historians generally agree that was in the years 26 AD through 36 AD...
...although some suggest it unlikely in 36 AD being his final year in office.


For those who insist that Jesus died on a Saturday/Sabbath...
...then during those years, Nisan 15 only fell on a weekly Saturday/Sabbath twice...
...on April 8 of 30 AD and April 4 of 33 AD.


There are scholars who favor 33 AD because the Passover full-moon coincided that year with a lunar eclipse in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy...

"And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." Joel 2:30-31

...that Peter refers to later in Acts 2:19-21

"And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

...a local events that he assumed those he spoke to were aware of...

Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

TS, have you seen the Star of Bethlehem site? We watched this guy's DVD presentation in Sunday School last weekend, and I think he makes some interesting points, similar to what you wrote. He also points to the full moon/lunar eclipse and the prophecy of Joel as referred to by Peter in Acts 2. He dates the crucifixion at April 3, 33.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

It was the Star of Bethlehem material that got me started thinking about all this.

I was looking to start a Christmas thread and came across Fred Larson's material at http://www.bethlehemstar.net/...
...I have seen his DVD...
...the implications to the SDA prophetic scheme and origins came later...
...I too think April 3, 33 is the best fit...
...and it works with history, both calendar calculations and astonomical evidence.

The research has been rewarding, there have been times when I could 'see' the crucifixion/resurrection in the data.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Mr. Happy

In the second century A.D., proof that the Jews were still keeping the seventh day Sabbath according to the lunar week can be found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria (circa 150-215 A.D.):


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

"And that it is said, that we and the Greeks know the same God, though not in the same way, he [St. Peter] will infer thus:

Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the month and the moon. And if the moon be not visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first; nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread, nor the feast, nor the great day."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm


The Fourth Commandment. ………………..

"And in periods of seven days the moon undergoes its changes. In the first week she becomes half moon; in the second, full moon; and in the third, in her wane, again half moon; and in the fourth she disappears. Further, as Seleucus the mathematician lays down, she has seven phases. First, from being invisible she becomes crescent-shaped, then half moon, then gibbous and full; and in her wane again gibbous, and in like manner half moon and crescent-shaped."

This is about as plain as it can get.
In Clement’s day, each and every month and every lunar week (as kept by the Jews) was still tied to the moon’s phases and, by extension, the weekly Sabbath was also still tied to the moon!