The Adventist Sabbath Paradox - Page 5 - Christian Discussion Forums

**Troubleshooter** · 07-07-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Greg - I thank you for the quote but I am not sure what the heart of the issue is? Is the heart of this discussion what does one do with the moon, or is the heart of the issue what does Jesus want from us in reference to the Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Wave Sheaf; or is it what does Jesus want us to do regarding Sabbath?

Titus Flavius Clemens (c.150 - 215) is also known as Clement of Alexandria.
His words under discussion here are...

"THE MONTH AND THE MOON. AND IF THE MOON BE NOT VISIBLE, THEY DO NOT HOLD THE SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE FIRST, NOR DO THEY HOLD THE NEW MOON, NOR THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, NOR THE FEAST NOR THE GREAT DAY."

Titus comments can best be understood with reference to a Lunar calendar.

THE SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE FIRST must be referring to the first weekly Sabbath of the month...
...which he mentions separately to the NEW MOON day...
...this is a reference to the timing of the beginning of Israel's year.

New Moon day is the first day following the sighting of the New Moon...
...notice on the calendar day 'one' is in the Sabbath column.

It is not technically a Sabbath because it does not follow six days of work...
...you can see this on the second month Lyar, it has 30 days...
...there has been a weekly Sabbath on the 29th day, so there is only one work day before the New Moon day...
...in 29 day months the fourth Sabbath of the month is followed by New Moon day, both rest days...
...that begins again the succession of 'weekly' Sabbaths etc.

The point is that Titus is making reference to the NEW MOON day of the Lunar calendar...
...which is then followed by six work day and the first 'weekly' SABBATH, WHICH IS CALLED THE FIRST.

This then sets the timing of THE FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD determined by the NEW MOON.

Then Titus says, NOR THE FEAST NOR THE GREAT DAY which is Passover and the feast of Passover...
...Passover is both an event and a feast timed from the first New Moon of the year.

Titus is then saying that IF THE MOON BE NOT VISIBLE, THEY DO NOT HOLD THE SABBATH...
...they therefore wait until it is visible to begins Israel's year and succession of weekly Sabbaths.

Greg Goodchild · 07-08-2009

So do you want Titus to establish the Sabbath or Jesus?

**Troubleshooter** · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

So do you want Titus to establish the Sabbath or Jesus?

The Lord established the Sabbath with Israel...
...this same Lord became Jesus and Christ...
...and it seems this Lord established the Sabbath according to a monthly cycle.

And Titus bore witness to them.

Greg Goodchild · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The Lord established the Sabbath with Israel...
...this same Lord became Jesus and Christ...
...and it seems this Lord established the Sabbath according to a monthly cycle.

And Titus bore witness to them.

Monthly cycles is the new moons. The Sabbath was established by the cycle established by Jesus in the Creation story. Every Seven days. The Lord of the Sabbath came to mankind and lived out His very own Sabbath. He left this example for us to follow. Jesus is the Author, Creator, Redeemer, Justifer, Deliverer, Sanctifier of those who keep the Sabbath.

**Troubleshooter** · 07-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

I don't understand your issue over the Sabbath in the days of Jesus death. It appears to me that you are trying to settle a spiritual issue by logic and reason. You, of course are free to do so and to deal with whatever issues you feel a need to address.

From my perspective it is solved three ways, God said it, it is written in the Bible, EGW confirmed it. It would be nice for me to be able to solve all of your concerns so that your logic and reason were satisfied but it appears that even old Jack Finergan could not solve the issue absolutely. Therefore the issue, in my opinion, is faith rather than the logic. I believe that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf offering.

In addition since I am settled on Sabbath as a sign of Jesus' eternal covenant, I believe that it will continue for ever since Jesus blessed His Sabbath day by resting on it, and then returning to the work of salvation on Sunday. So for me Sabbath is not a paradox, it is simply a matter of faith and obedience by faith.

So you don't agree with Ellen or scripture?
Ellen believed the Sabbath was a Passover and scripture agrees.

Ellen also said...
"In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

You can't have the combination of a Saturday/Sabbath/Passover and a full moon in 31 AD...
...unless you accept Sabbath's were determined by the a Lunar calendar.

Greg Goodchild · 07-06-2009

[QUOTE=Troubleshooter;4929143]So you don't agree with Ellen or scripture?
Ellen believed the Sabbath was a Passover and scripture agrees.

Ellen also said...
"In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

You can't have the combination of a Saturday/Sabbath/Passover and a full moon in 31 AD...
...unless you accept Sabbath's were determined by the a Lunar calendar.

Greg - Passover was on Friday, which starts at sundown. Jesus died on the preparation day. He rested in the tomb on the second SAbbath, which landed on the Weekly Sabbath day, and He resurrected and went back to work on the issues of salvation on the third Annual Sabbath - Wave sheaf. As far as I can see I am in harmony with the Bible and with EGW, since she is always in harmony with the Bible. What I am not in harmony with is each subtle intent to nullify Scripture, and the holy Sabbath day.

Gospel_Way · 07-03-2009

Let me see if I can break this one down for you Brother Greg.

Troubleshooter has a problem with the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34 AD). The particular bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD as the year for the crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of Jesus’ death occurring in that year but he believes that the only way that it can qualify as the year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th day Sabbath was determined by the lunar cycle. Therefore he concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his estimation, our prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our belief in the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can only work if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the lunar cycle. In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on different days every month because the count would start once the new moon’s crescent was seen. Therefore Troubleshooter thinks that our holding to 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion is at odds with the 7th day Sabbath occurring on the same day (Saturday) throughout the year. (PS: Feel free to correct me Troubleshooter if I have not accurately stated your objection)

Now why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath? Well to make a long story very short it is apparent from the Scriptures that Jesus died on a Friday. That Friday was the Passover and it was followed by the 7th day Sabbath. We know this for certain because the Bible is very clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See the end of Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count back in time to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have occurred. According to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to happen on the 14th day of the first Jewish month. So it appears that he has concluded that one can simply count back 14 days from Friday and figure out which day of the week the new moon had to have occurred on in order to produce a Friday Passover. With that thought in mind, he has concluded that the new moon didn’t happen on the right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover because the conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in March. He has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the full moon disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And just for clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new moon. The new moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth, moon and sun are all in a straight line so that no light can be seen reflecting off of the moon. When this would happen the Jews would understand that it was close to the time to start a new month. Once the crescent of the moon was seen reflecting light by witnesses a confirmation process would happen in the Sanhedrin and a new month would begin.

The problem with Troubleshooter’s theory is that he does not acknowledge the human element in the equation. The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and the month could start at the end of those three days. There are also a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month. My post entitled “And the wheels on the bus go round and round” evidences this.

Now just to be technical let me give a bit of clarification on another one of his statements.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: Ellen believed the Sabbath was a Passover and scripture agrees

Quote:

Greg_Goodchild wrote: I believe that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf offering.

Lest there be any confusion on this matter the Passover ritual extended from the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen White believed that the Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the Passover ritual will actually help clarify any confusion here. The Passover lamb was to be slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st month specifically “in the evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then the flesh was eaten “in that night” (Ex 12:8). In other words the Passover lamb was slain at the close of the 14th day and it was eaten during the beginning of the 15th day. Hence the observation of the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb) occurred while Jesus was dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can accurately say that the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because the lamb was eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that Friday was the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st month and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications but I hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you are right in your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week was both a 7th day Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations” associated with the feast of unleavened bread. This is the most likely explanation for the term “high Sabbath” found in John’s Gospel.

Anyway, I hope this post has helped clarify the issues that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections were rational and I believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal with this spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason and rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the harmonious balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon human reasoning alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I believe that He has been my Helper in this matter. My prayer for Troubleshooter now is that he might see that his objections have been answered. The weight of Bible evidence indicates that SDA's are correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is not dependent on the lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the cross conflict with this truth.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

pythons · 07-03-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW

Now why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath?

Would you be able to give your view on the quote from Titus. Do you believe it's not true?

**Troubleshooter** · 07-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Let me see if I can break this one down for you Brother Greg.

I think you have explained the issue well to Greg...
...I only have the following comments...

Quote:

Troubleshooter has a problem with the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34 AD). The particular bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD as the year for the crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of Jesus’ death occurring in that year but he believes that the only way that it can qualify as the year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th day Sabbath was determined by the lunar cycle. Therefore he concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his estimation, our prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our belief in the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can only work if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the lunar cycle. In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on different days every month because the count would start once the new moon’s crescent was seen. Therefore Troubleshooter thinks that our holding to 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion is at odds with the 7th day Sabbath occurring on the same day (Saturday) throughout the year. (PS: Feel free to correct me Troubleshooter if I have not accurately stated your objection)

This is not my problem, or about what I believe or think...
...the paradox exists between what William Miller believed and thought...
...and the type of Sabbath SDA's later adopted.

The paradox is historical rather than theological or spiritual...
...it did happen and it will remain a paradox...
...while SDA's rest their origin on one basis and their Sabbath reckoning on another.

Which method is the right one is moot.

Quote:

Now why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath? Well to make a long story very short it is apparent from the Scriptures that Jesus died on a Friday. That Friday was the Passover and it was followed by the 7th day Sabbath. We know this for certain because the Bible is very clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See the end of Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count back in time to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have occurred. According to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to happen on the 14th day of the first Jewish month. So it appears that he has concluded that one can simply count back 14 days from Friday and figure out which day of the week the new moon had to have occurred on in order to produce a Friday Passover. With that thought in mind, he has concluded that the new moon didn’t happen on the right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover because the conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in March. He has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the full moon disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And just for clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new moon. The new moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth, moon and sun are all in a straight line so that no light can be seen reflecting off of the moon. When this would happen the Jews would understand that it was close to the time to start a new month. Once the crescent of the moon was seen reflecting light by witnesses a confirmation process would happen in the Sanhedrin and a new month would begin.

The problem with Troubleshooter’s theory is that he does not acknowledge the human element in the equation. The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and the month could start at the end of those three days. There are also a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month. My post entitled “And the wheels on the bus go round and round” evidences this.

Again, the paradox exists between two different methods for reckoning...
...the origin of the Advent movement...
...and the reckoning of the Sabbath SDA's currently observe.

Quote:

Now just to be technical let me give a bit of clarification on another one of his statements.

Lest there be any confusion on this matter the Passover ritual extended from the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen White believed that the Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the Passover ritual will actually help clarify any confusion here. The Passover lamb was to be slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st month specifically “in the evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then the flesh was eaten “in that night” (Ex 12:8). In other words the Passover lamb was slain at the close of the 14th day and it was eaten during the beginning of the 15th day. Hence the observation of the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb) occurred while Jesus was dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can accurately say that the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because the lamb was eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that Friday was the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st month and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications but I hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you are right in your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week was both a 7th day Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations” associated with the feast of unleavened bread. This is the most likely explanation for the term “high Sabbath” found in John’s Gospel.

In William Miller's reckoning Sabbath did not necessarily mean Saturday.

Quote:

Anyway, I hope this post has helped clarify the issues that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections were rational and I believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal with this spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason and rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the harmonious balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon human reasoning alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I believe that He has been my Helper in this matter. My prayer for Troubleshooter now is that he might see that his objections have been answered. The weight of Bible evidence indicates that SDA's are correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is not dependent on the lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the cross conflict with this truth.

The paradox I have outlined is a historical one...
...it can not be 'answered'...
...the anomally can only be acknowledged...
...the SDA origin relied on a luni/solar calendar reckoning...
...the SDA Sabbath relies on a weekly Julian/Gregorian calendar reckoning.

Thank you for helping me to clearly define this paradox.

**Troubleshooter** · 07-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Ellen White believed that the Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

Can you help me answer this question:
Do you know anywhere that Ellen uses the word 'Friday', 'Saturday' or 'Sunday' in conjunction with the Passover and Jesus death and resurrection?..
...I see her using 'preparation' and 'Sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the assumption is usually made what day she means...
...but do you know of anywhere that she actually says Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

**Troubleshooter** · 07-14-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by troubleshooter

can you help me answer this question:
Do you know anywhere that ellen uses the word 'friday', 'saturday' or 'sunday' in conjunction with the passover and jesus death and resurrection?..
...i see her using 'preparation' and 'sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the assumption is usually made what day she means...
...but do you know of anywhere that she actually says friday, saturday, sunday?

Gospel_Way · 07-14-2009

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: Do you know anywhere that Ellen uses the word 'Friday', 'Saturday' or 'Sunday' in conjunction with the Passover and Jesus death and resurrection?..
...I see her using 'preparation' and 'Sabbath' or 'first day'...
...and the assumption is usually made what day she means...
...but do you know of anywhere that she actually says Friday, Saturday, Sunday?

I do not think you will find any quote where she uses “Friday, Saturday and Sunday” sequentially at the same time. However a brief perusal of her writings on the matter show that this was her belief.

Christ died on a Friday

“From eyewitnesses some of the disciples had obtained quite a full account of the events of Friday. Others beheld the scenes of the crucifixion with their own eyes. In the afternoon of the first day of the week, two of the disciples, restless and unhappy, decided to return to their home in Emmaus, a village about eight miles from Jerusalem” (Christ Triumphant pg 295)

Friday is the preparation day

While preparation for the Sabbath is to be made all through the week, Friday is to be the special preparation day (Counsels for the Church pg 263)

Saturday is the Sabbath

Elder Bates was resting upon Saturday, the seventh day of the week, and he urged it upon our attention as the true Sabbath. I did not feel its importance, and thought that he erred in dwelling upon the fourth commandment more than upon the other nine. (Christian Experience and Views of Ellen White pg 85)

The temptation will come. If you keep the Sabbath, the very day the fourth commandment has specified, you shall have to give up this source of gain. You shall have to close your business on Saturday, the busiest and most profitable day in the week. And when you hesitate to comply with a plain "Thus saith the Lord," because you will lose profit, and riches will not increase unto you, you continue in disobedience to God and bow the knee to Satan as he tempted Christ to do. (Manuscript Releases Vol 17 pg 79)

Saturday is the 7th day of the week and Sunday is the 1st day

I explained to them that Sunday is the first day, and that the day called Saturday by the world is the seventh day…I told them that Christ kept the Sabbath, and that the women rested on the seventh day, “according to the commandment,” and on the first day of the week brought spices and ointment to His sepulcher. (EGW: The Early Elmshaven Years pg 330)

Christ resurrected on Sunday

Protestants now urge that the resurrection of Christ on Sunday made it the Christian Sabbath. But Scripture evidence is lacking. No such honor was given to the day by Christ or his apostles (The Great Controversy pg 54)

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

**Troubleshooter** · 07-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

...The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and the month could start at the end of those three days. There are also a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month.

GW, what is your source for this 'three-day range' theory?

Gospel_Way · 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

GW, what is your source for this 'three-day range' theory?

The sources for my theory are two-fold. The immediate source and the one which I included in the former post is from the Encyclopedia Brittanica:

“The difficulty with regard to the day is, quite similarly, to know what precise relation the first day of the Jewish month bore to the astronomical new moon. In later Christian times the Paschal month was calculated from the astronomical new moon; in earlier Jewish times all month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new moon was visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some hours, and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical new moon.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Now going into a bit more detail here I will share my rationale.

1) The calendars that you provided by which you attempt to rule out 31 AD as a possible year for the crucifixion of Christ use the astronomical new moon. The problem with that is that they do not take into account that the new moon crescent is sometimes not visible for a few days surrounding the conjunction nor does it reckon the human factor and time involved (i.e. the testimony before the Sanhedrin)

“When the moon is in perigee and her motion quickest, she does not usually appear until the 2nd day; nor in apogee when her slowest until the 4th (Old Greek Astronomy. Geminus, B.C. 60. See Hales pg 67)

“After the moon’s conjunction, it is generally 2 days or more before any part of her lighted surface is visible” (Dick’s Solar System II.5 pg 51)

"The moon is not visible from the earth (unless during a solar eclipse) for a period of about one-and-one-half to three-and-one-half days surrounding the time of the lunar conjunction." (I'm sorry I lost the source for this quote but I will scrounge around and see if I can find it. I included it because it was in with the rest of the quotes)

“As [the moon] gets farther away from the sun the percentage of its illuminated surface facing the Earth increases and one evening shortly after sunset the moon is seen anew after being invisible for 1.5-3.5 days.” (Taken from the article “New Moon” on the karaite-korner website)

"The Muslims were told that the moon normally takes 2-3 days to become visible over the populated regions of the globe. Depending on the most northerly or southerly ecliptic latitude the moon sometimes may not be seen until five days after the conjunction" (Taken from the islamicmoon website)

"Another predicament is created by the use of the conjunction because during the period surrounding the conjunction there are as many as two or even three nights when no moon is visible." (Taken from the article “What is the New Moon” by Yahweh Restoration Ministries)

All of these quotes indicate to me that starting from the astronomical new moon is an inaccurate method of trying to determine the Passover date in the first century. The SDA Bible commentary also mentions that 3 days and and 4 hours is a "possible interval after the astronomical new moon" (SDA BC Vol 5. pg 252)

The great likelihood is that the Jews of Jesus' day would not be starting from the astronomical new moon but rather from a sighting of the new moon's crescent. The various quotes I have examined on the matter indicate that this would normally happen somewhere between 1 to 3 days after the astronomical conjunction. Hence my theory of a 3 day range.

"Although the date and time of each New Moon can be computed exactly, the visibility of the lunar crescent as a function of the Moon's "age" - the time counted from New Moon - depends upon many factors and cannot be predicted with certainty. In the first two days after New Moon, the young crescent Moon appears very low in the western sky after sunset, and must be viewed through bright twilight. It sets shortly after sunset. The sighting of the lunar crescent within one day of New Moon is usually difficult. (Taken from an article by the Astronomical Applications Department of the U.S. Naval Observatory “FAQ about the Moon’s Crescents”)

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Greg Goodchild · 07-06-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

Let me see if I can break this one down for you Brother Greg.

Troubleshooter has a problem with the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 9 (i.e. 457 BC- 27, 31, 34 AD). The particular bone that he has to pick is in regard to 31 AD as the year for the crucifixion. He does not deny the possibility of Jesus’ death occurring in that year but he believes that the only way that it can qualify as the year of Jesus’ death is if the 7th day Sabbath was determined by the lunar cycle. Therefore he concludes that we are in a paradox because, in his estimation, our prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9 is at odds with our belief in the 7th day Sabbath. Basically, he thinks that AD 31 can only work if we accept that the 7th day Sabbath was based on the lunar cycle. In the lunar system a 7th day Sabbath could be on different days every month because the count would start once the new moon’s crescent was seen. Therefore Troubleshooter thinks that our holding to 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion is at odds with the 7th day Sabbath occurring on the same day (Saturday) throughout the year. (PS: Feel free to correct me Troubleshooter if I have not accurately stated your objection)

Now why does he think that AD 31 can only qualify if we have a lunar cycle Sabbath? Well to make a long story very short it is apparent from the Scriptures that Jesus died on a Friday. That Friday was the Passover and it was followed by the 7th day Sabbath. We know this for certain because the Bible is very clear that Jesus arose on the 1st day of the week (See the end of Luke 23 beginning of Luke 24).

With this information in hand, it appears that Troubleshooter has attempted to count back in time to determine when the new moon conjunction had to have occurred. According to Scripture, the Passover was scheduled to happen on the 14th day of the first Jewish month. So it appears that he has concluded that one can simply count back 14 days from Friday and figure out which day of the week the new moon had to have occurred on in order to produce a Friday Passover. With that thought in mind, he has concluded that the new moon didn’t happen on the right day in AD 31 to equal out to a Friday Passover because the conjunction occurred on a Tuesday in April and a Monday in March. He has also concluded that Mrs. White’s statement about the full moon disqualifies that year for the same reason.

And just for clarity’s sake let me define what we mean when we say new moon. The new moon (also called a conjunction) is when the earth, moon and sun are all in a straight line so that no light can be seen reflecting off of the moon. When this would happen the Jews would understand that it was close to the time to start a new month. Once the crescent of the moon was seen reflecting light by witnesses a confirmation process would happen in the Sanhedrin and a new month would begin.

The problem with Troubleshooter’s theory is that he does not acknowledge the human element in the equation. The Jews had a three day range from the astronomical new moon and the month could start at the end of those three days. There are also a couple of other potential factors involved with the starting date of the Jewish month but I do not have the time or desire to explain how absolutely complicated they are. Nor do I think it necessary because ironically enough the dates that he has put up for April 31 AD actually work for a Friday Passover and a 7th day Sabbath when one keeps in mind the 3-day range for starting the month. My post entitled “And the wheels on the bus go round and round” evidences this.

Now just to be technical let me give a bit of clarification on another one of his statements.

Lest there be any confusion on this matter the Passover ritual extended from the 14th day into the 15th.

Ellen White believed that the Friday (That would be from Thursday sunset to Friday sunset) was the day of the Passover and the Scripture agrees.

“At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands and lay in Joseph’s tomb” (Desire of Ages pg )

An understanding of the Passover ritual will actually help clarify any confusion here. The Passover lamb was to be slain “the fourteenth day” of the 1st month specifically “in the evening” time (Ex 12:6) and then the flesh was eaten “in that night” (Ex 12:8). In other words the Passover lamb was slain at the close of the 14th day and it was eaten during the beginning of the 15th day. Hence the observation of the ritual (i.e. the eating of the lamb) occurred while Jesus was dead and buried in the tomb.

So one can accurately say that the 7th day Sabbath was the Passover that year because the lamb was eaten at its beginning. One can also accurately say that Friday was the Passover that year because it was the 14th day of the 1st month and the lamb was slain at its close. Unfortunately the way that we think of days (midnight to midnight) sometimes causes complications but I hope this clears things up.

And Greg, I believe you are right in your conclusion. The Sabbath of the crucifixion week was both a 7th day Sabbath and one of the “holy convocations” associated with the feast of unleavened bread. This is the most likely explanation for the term “high Sabbath” found in John’s Gospel.

Anyway, I hope this post has helped clarify the issues that Troubleshooter has raised. His objections were rational and I believe it was appropriate for him to attempt to deal with this spiritual issue by logic and reason. God is the Maker of reason and rationale and He longs for us to use our minds to find the harmonious balance in His Word. Nevertheless we must not rely upon human reasoning alone, the Spirit is the Divine Teacher and I believe that He has been my Helper in this matter. My prayer for Troubleshooter now is that he might see that his objections have been answered. The weight of Bible evidence indicates that SDA's are correct on Daniel 9 and the 7th day Sabbath is not dependent on the lunar cycle nor does the 31 AD as the year of the cross conflict with this truth.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Thank you for the feedback. I pray for Sabbath understanding by faith for our friends.

Gospel_Way · 07-05-2009

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: The two Julian calendar months are the heart of the 'scholars' data for ruling out 31 AD.

As my former posts have amply demonstrated, the methods whereby certain scholars have ruled out 31 AD as the year of the crucifixion of Christ are suspect. They presuppose too much in terms of calculating the Passover date. When one considers that the Jews of Jesus’ day were likely counting their month from the sighting of the new moon's crescent and not the astronomical new moon, this gives us a interval for the starting date of the 1st month that makes AD 31 a viable option.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: So far all you have given me is bluster about why any date can't be accurately established...which only works against your position.

I find this quote to be a bit ironic. If I understand our dialogue correctly, I am defending the year 31 AD for Jesus’ crucifixion. You are asserting that I am in a paradox because 31 AD and the 7th day Sabbath are incompatible. Your proof for this is an argument based on the date of the astronomical new moon in 31 AD and the perceived impossibility of it equaling out to the necessary Friday/Sabbath Passover associated with the cross. My entire conversation with you has a rebuttal of that theory. In other words, you have been trying to disqualify 31 AD and I have been trying to show you why your attempt to disqualify it doesn’t work.

Now if your calendar for April 31 AD is accurate then I would say that it is likely that Jesus died on Friday, April 27th 31 AD shortly after 3 PM. The information about the year (31 AD) the day (Friday) and the hour (3 PM) are all derived from the Scriptures (Daniel 9:27; Luke 23:54 and Matt 27:45 respectively) but I will not venture to speak with absolute certainty regarding the month and date according to the Gregorian calendar.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: I have no date preference and I don't need to establish my religious prophetic origin...through dubious date-setting schemes.

Then why so much argumentation against Adventists holding to 31 AD? Earlier on you stated that it may very well be the crucifixion year.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: The year 31 AD may well be the crucifixion year...

If you can accept this as a possible year for the crucifixion then why is there a problem that I hold to it? Is it because of I believe in the validity of both 31 AD and the weekly 7th day Sabbath? Again, just as you have presented your theory as to why 31 AD and the Passover/7th day Sabbath are an impossibility I have presented one showing that it is possible.

Quote:

Troubleshooter wrote: What is your case for 31 AD?

Now we are getting to the real meat of the matter. Before we really get into this I have to ask how deep do you want me to get? You have made mention of "dubious time-setting schemes" and I believe that such a categorization is trite and unfounded. This issue is not one that I have reached my conclusion on lightly. What I am considering is to take you through my rationale in regard to the timeline of Daniel 9. That would involve the following

1) Establishing Artaxerxes’ decree as the correct one to begin the 490 year prophecy. I believe this can be done by examining the Word of God carefully and also by establishing the mathematical impossibility of any other decree

2) Displaying from archeology the validity of 457 BC as the year of that decree. This will take quite some time and we will have to examine many different things (i.e. ascension vs. non-ascension reckoning systems, Ptolemy’s canon, double-dated papyri).

3) Showing how the specifications of Daniel’s prophecy are met in the New Testament and how the 457 BC start for the timeline of Daniel 9 is the only one that fits the New Testament chronology.

This will be quite the process if we intend to do it thoroughly. If you are seriously interested in my case for 31 AD, I will start a new thread and go through it step by step for your evaluation. If you are open to the possibility that the 457 BC -27,31,34 AD timeline may be correct and I believe the weight of Bible evidence indicates that this is so then I will proceed. If you are not, for whatever reason (i.e. the Sabbath/Passover contention that we have discussed), then I will not. If I were retired or if I had lots of free time I would go ahead anyway but I have signed a new contract with my employer and my work responsibilities have again increased. Thus I must be very careful with my time from henceforth. I await your response and I will be keeping you in my prayers this evening. As always I am happily…

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

**Troubleshooter** · 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gospel_Way

...If you are seriously interested in my case for 31 AD, I will start a new thread and go through it step by step for your evaluation. If you are open to the possibility that the 457 BC -27,31,34 AD timeline may be correct and I believe the weight of Bible evidence indicates that this is so then I will proceed. If you are not, for whatever reason (i.e. the Sabbath/Passover contention that we have discussed), then I will not. If I were retired or if I had lots of free time I would go ahead anyway but I have signed a new contract with my employer and my work responsibilities have again increased. Thus I must be very careful with my time from henceforth. I await your response and I will be keeping you in my prayers this evening. As always I am happily...

I would like you to thoroughly present your case for 31 AD...
...I have been trying to get an SDA to do this for months.

Please promise me though that you will not sacrifice scholarship...
...to support your religious presuppositions...
...like Grace Amadon did it researching this issue.

pythons · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I would like you to thoroughly present your case for 31 AD...
...I have been trying to get an SDA to do this for months.

Please promise me though that you will not sacrifice scholarship...
...to support your religious presuppositions...
...like Grace Amadon did it researching this issue.

I've been reading the Babylonian Talmud about specifi rules and came upon a section dealing with what one should do if he would become lost in the desert or wild area and forget when the Sabbath was to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talmud, chapter 7 on Shabbat

Said Rabha again: "If he only recollects the number of days he has been travelling, he may labor all day on the eighth day of his journey, in any event" (for he surely did not start on his journey on a Sabbath). Is this not self-evident?

Now, I'm convinced that the arguments for the lunar seem to be reasonable, especially when one considers a well known Catholic Church Father (Clement) explicitly stated that it did.

However, that said, I have finally got an email back from a real Karaite Jew who is an authority for that order of Judaism and he claims that the reason the Karaite Jews observe the same period for Shabbat is because he believes it indeed is on Saturday?

One thing is for certain, the Sanhedrin, once they are again established, will fix the calendar and no one is certain of those ramifications.

**Troubleshooter** · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I've been reading the Babylonian Talmud about specifi rules and came upon a section dealing with what one should do if he would become lost in the desert or wild area and forget when the Sabbath was to be.

Now, I'm convinced that the arguments for the lunar seem to be reasonable, especially when one considers a well known Catholic Church Father (Clement) explicitly stated that it did.

However, that said, I have finally got an email back from a real Karaite Jew who is an authority for that order of Judaism and he claims that the reason the Karaite Jews observe the same period for Shabbat is because he believes it indeed is on Saturday?

One thing is for certain, the Sanhedrin, once they are again established, will fix the calendar and no one is certain of those ramifications.

I am also coming to the realization that the calendar the Lord established for Israel was a Lunar calendar...
...it makes sense that if the Lord said to Moses...
..."This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you." Exodus 12:2...
...and followed this with specific days set according to the month (literally moonth) cycle...
...In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb" Exodus 12:3...
..."...keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month:" Exodus 12:6...
...it is also reasonable that 'weekly' Sabbaths would be set to occur according to the same calendar reckoning.

The Julian calendar was a solar calendar and was not introduced until 46 BC by Julius Caesar...
...so why would the Lord have given Moses Sabbath reckoning by that method.

It is entirely reasonable to see why secular calendar calculations were periodically altered to reflect national, global and commercial interests...
...and that religious interests in time standardized their systems to suit...
...but this is not how the Lord established it for Israel's salvation history.

It seems the Lord knew or even planned that it would be forgotten...

Lamentations 2:6 "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."

If indeed it is true, it certainly makes a joke of the endless Sunday/Saturday debates.

Greg Goodchild · 07-08-2009

It is quite simple, the 7th day of the week is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of the week is Sunday - Sunday is not the Sabbath.

Victor · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

It is quite simple, the 7th day of the week is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of the week is Sunday - Sunday is not the Sabbath.

You haven't been paying attention to this thread, Greg.
If the first day of the week comes right after Wednesday, then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday from the previous week's reckoning anymore.

**Troubleshooter** · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

You haven't been paying attention to this thread, Greg.
If the first day of the week comes right after Wednesday, then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday from the previous week's reckoning anymore.

BrianL · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

It is quite simple, the 7th day of the week is Saturday and Saturday is the Sabbath. The first day of the week is Sunday - Sunday is not the Sabbath.

Yes, the 7th day of our Gregorian week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week Sunday?

In Christ,
Brian

commen tater · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

Yes, the 7th day of our Gregorian week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week Sunday?

In Christ,
Brian

Dear Brian,

Just so I know where you are coming from on this. Are you, by any chance, a rabbinical literalist?

Tater

BrianL · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Dear Brian,

Just so I know where you are coming from on this. Are you, by any chance, a rabbinical literalist?

Tater

I dunno, you'd have to ask Greg Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical Purist.

In Christ,
Brian

commen tater · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

I dunno, you'd have to ask Greg Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical Purist.

In Christ,
Brian

Well, please understand where I'm coming from. I don't see the point in using words like "marmalade" if we are having trouble spelling "jam".

BrianL · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Well, please understand where I'm coming from. I don't see the point in using words like "marmalade" if we are having trouble spelling "jam".

Agreed.

In Christ,
Brian

Sophia7 · 07-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by commen tater

Well, please understand where I'm coming from. I don't see the point in using words like "marmalade" if we are having trouble spelling "jam".

Greg Goodchild · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

I dunno, you'd have to ask Greg Goodchild.

More likely a Biblical Purist.

In Christ,
Brian

After reading the Bible as much as you do, can you not detect Pharisaical thinking, reading, reasoning? Jesus allowed us to have many examples in the NT. He gave us these examples for a reason. Learn what it is and then don't follow it. Learn how Jesus' reasons, speaks, thinks. He is much safer than the Pharisees.

Greg Goodchild · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

Yes, the 7th day of our Gregorian week is Saturday, was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week Sunday?

In Christ,
Brian

Yes, Because The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are pretty good at counting. Jesus was not confused by Gregorian calenders.

BrianL · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverSearching

was the 1st day of the 1st (creation) week Sunday?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Yes

Scripture Please!

In Christ,
Brian

Greg Goodchild · 07-10-2009

Genesis 1:5 "...and the evenng and the morning were the first day.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week..."

We know what day is the seventh day, and we call the first day of the week Sunday, today. The first day is the day after the 7th day. I don't particularly care what name you call first day. Biblically 1st day is the official name of the 1st day of the week. 6th day is Preparation day, and the 7th day is the Sabbath.

Victor · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Goodchild

Genesis 1:5 "...and the evenng and the morning were the first day.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week..."

We know what day is the seventh day, and we call the first day of the week Sunday, today. The first day is the day after the 7th day. I don't particularly care what name you call first day. Biblically 1st day is the official name of the 1st day of the week. 6th day is Preparation day, and the 7th day is the Sabbath.

I still think you haven't read this thread carefully enough to determine that the new month was established by the new moon, and the thesis is that when the month began, so did a new week. As I wrote to you earlier:

Quote:

If the first day of the week comes right after Wednesday, then the seventh day of the week isn't Saturday from the previous week's reckoning anymore.

That is, the last day of the month was some random day, and then the new moon would proclaim the new day to be Sunday (not by name, of course).
That breaks the continuous cycles of seven-day weeks, and you can't count them with the assumption that they were continuous.

pythons · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I am also coming to the realization that the calendar the Lord established for Israel was a Lunar calendar...
...it makes sense that if the Lord said to Moses...
..."This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you." Exodus 12:2...
...and followed this with specific days set according to the month (literally moonth) cycle...
...In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb" Exodus 12:3...
..."...keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month:" Exodus 12:6...
...it is also reasonable that 'weekly' Sabbaths would be set to occur according to the same calendar reckoning.

The Julian calendar was a solar calendar and was not introduced until 46 BC by Julius Caesar...
...so why would the Lord have given Moses Sabbath reckoning by that method.

It is entirely reasonable to see why secular calendar calculations were periodically altered to reflect national, global and commercial interests...
...and that religious interests in time standardized their systems to suit...
...but this is not how the Lord established it for Israel's salvation history.

It seems the Lord knew or even planned that it would be forgotten...

Lamentations 2:6 "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."

If indeed it is true, it certainly makes a joke of the endless Sunday/Saturday debates.

I've got some heavy weights in the area of Catholic Apologetics who I've asked for some help in this area. That Clement speaks of this literally settles the issue for me. The fact that I've not been answered on my questions other then "intersting" , "will get back to you" tells me these people certainly felt it was worth looking at.

I wonder if there are very many people within Adventism that are going gang busters into the study of this? I'm guessing that SDA Pastors will be having their hands full within a year, given the implications.

The thing that jumped out at me was how the Homily from Clement exactly reflected why Christians are not to stress out over not observing the Law of Moses whereas Sabbath is concerned. It's just I never realized that the Sanhedrin controlled the New Moon, thus controlled when the 8th day would hit and every seven thereafter.

I keep reading about this woman who did all the research. Where can I read the whole work word for word?

**Troubleshooter** · 07-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I've got some heavy weights in the area of Catholic Apologetics who I've asked for some help in this area. That Clement speaks of this literally settles the issue for me. The fact that I've not been answered on my questions other then "intersting" , "will get back to you" tells me these people certainly felt it was worth looking at.

I wonder if there are very many people within Adventism that are going gang busters into the study of this? I'm guessing that SDA Pastors will be having their hands full within a year, given the implications.

The thing that jumped out at me was how the Homily from Clement exactly reflected why Christians are not to stress out over not observing the Law of Moses whereas Sabbath is concerned. It's just I never realized that the Sanhedrin controlled the New Moon, thus controlled when the 8th day would hit and every seven thereafter.

I keep reading about this woman who did all the research. Where can I read the whole work word for word?

Grace Amadon's collection is listed at the following address...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/toc.php

pythons · 07-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Grace Amadon's collection is listed at the following address...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/toc.php

I just completed reading it. That is one monster report. It's very telling that M.L. Andreasen insisted that a "gag order"
be placed on the report until such time as it's re-wording so that they might be able to prove the calculations used to reach 1844 without causing great alarm to the SDA church by letting them know what else the report confirmed. I finally get it.

The other thing that was strange was that, according to history, Saturn's day (Saturday) WAS the first day of the week.

jaman · 07-10-2009

My interest in this has encouraged me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been interesting to say the least.

Basically it seems very logical and believable except for thee basic points.

1. 29 day months work fine with the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly.

2. Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's first full day?

3. The fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't work using this system unless you consider New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they are not included in the count.

Interested in the opinion of others on these questions.

pythons · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

My interest in this has encouraged me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been interesting to say the least.

Basically it seems very logical and believable except for thee basic points.

1. 29 day months work fine with the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly.

As I understand it, the way it's done is that there remains a cycle of a 7 day week. The month closes itself out by conjuction. I don't think they are viewing the New Moon day as a Sabbath, it's simply a blank day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

2. Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's first full day?

Their logic is that God "appointed" the moon. I have not read where they said when God appointed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman

3. The fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't work using this system unless you consider New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they are not included in the count.

Interested in the opinion of others on these questions.

According to what I have read they are non-days. This is what the big beef with the SDA Amadon report is, if I understand it correctly. I read the whole report whereas the group claimed the 1844 doctrine was given a perfect bill of heath whereas the math was concerned IF lunar calendation was used. To pinpoint the D.O.A. (the 22nd of Oct) the group was forced to "not count days".

It says right in the report that the Church must loudly proclaim this great truth or dump the whole thing because without the I.J. the SDA Church does not exist. It is a paradox.

Yeah, it's pretty strange stuff isn't it. IMHO the majority of it is wasted effort as all those kinds of things terminated at the cross. Did you read the report?

jaman · 07-10-2009

"The first day of the lunar month was observed as a holy day. In addition to the daily sacrifice there were offered two young bullocks, a ram and seven lambs of the first year as a burnt offering, with the proper meat offerings and drink offerings, and a kid as a sin offering. Num 28:11-15. As on the Sabbath, trade and handicraft work were stopped, Amos 8:5, and the temple was opened for public worship. Isa 66:23; Ezek 46:3. The trumpets were blown at the offering of the special sacrifices for the day, as on the solemn festivals. Num 10:10; Ps 81:3. It was an occasion for state banquets. 1 Sam 20:5- 24. In later, if not in earlier times, fasting was intermitted at the new moons. The new moons are generally mentioned so as to show that they were regarded as a peculiar class of holy days, distinguished from the solemn feasts and the Sabbaths. . . . The religious observance of the day of the new moon may plainly be regarded as the consecration of a natural division of time.

An indication that the New Moon sabbaths were actually considered to be higher than the seventh-day Sabbath is the additional sacrifices offered that day."

**Troubleshooter** · 07-10-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaman

My interest in this has encouraged me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been interesting to say the least.

Welcome to the forum Jaman, appreciate your contribution.

I had not considered this topic until a couple of months ago...
...I first asked questions about the date of the crucifixion...
...and no current SDA had an answer to why 31 AD was a viable date...
...other than it 'worked' with 1844.

I have still not had an SDA provide a credible answer that satisfies all the biblical criteria...
...while assuming a Julian/Gregorian calendar reckoning...
...and I am convinced they never will.

I think now that the weekly Sabbath was as much a part of the sacrificial system detailed by the Lord to Moses...
...as was the sacrifice of the lamb and the role of the priest.

Quote:

Basically it seems very logical and believable except for thee basic points.

1. 29 day months work fine with the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly.

It is easy to think something is illogical when it is just unfamiliar.

My only question is...is it true history?

Quote:

2. Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's first full day?

We only have the evidence of one week at creation...
...so it is impossible to extrapolate beyond that historical week.

The first thing God said when He started creation was "Let there be light" Genesis 1:3

Each month begins with the 'light' of a New Moon...
...is it such a stretch to see a replay of the creation each new month...
...especially when it is possible to demonstrate that at least the first three months post-Exodus unfolded this way.

Wow what an amazing piece of theatre...
...replaying the creation and rehearsing the re-creation/redemption each New Moon.

Quote:

3. The fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't work using this system unless you consider New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days!
i.e they are not included in the count.

Good article here...The Count to Pentecost...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/TheCountPentecost.pdf

Hope we see more of you here Jaman.

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07-08-2009	#2
Greg Goodchild Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,340 Reputation: 85	So do you want Titus to establish the Sabbath or Jesus?

07-06-2009	#6
Greg Goodchild Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,340 Reputation: 85	[QUOTE=Troubleshooter;4929143]So you don't agree with Ellen or scripture? Ellen believed the Sabbath was a Passover and scripture agrees. Ellen also said... "In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685 You can't have the combination of a Saturday/Sabbath/Passover and a full moon in 31 AD... ...unless you accept Sabbath's were determined by the a Lunar calendar. Greg - Passover was on Friday, which starts at sundown. Jesus died on the preparation day. He rested in the tomb on the second SAbbath, which landed on the Weekly Sabbath day, and He resurrected and went back to work on the issues of salvation on the third Annual Sabbath - Wave sheaf. As far as I can see I am in harmony with the Bible and with EGW, since she is always in harmony with the Bible. What I am not in harmony with is each subtle intent to nullify Scripture, and the holy Sabbath day.

07-10-2009	#32
Greg Goodchild Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,340 Reputation: 85	Genesis 1:5 "...and the evenng and the morning were the first day. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week..." We know what day is the seventh day, and we call the first day of the week Sunday, today. The first day is the day after the 7th day. I don't particularly care what name you call first day. Biblically 1st day is the official name of the 1st day of the week. 6th day is Preparation day, and the 7th day is the Sabbath.

07-10-2009	#37
jaman Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Mexico #2 Posts: 436 Reputation: 30	My interest in this has encouraged me to register to this forum as the discussion thus far has been interesting to say the least. Basically it seems very logical and believable except for thee basic points. 1. 29 day months work fine with the 29th day Sabbath followed by the New Moon day Sabbath, but on a 30 day month you have the 29th day Sabbath followed by a work day and then the New Moon day Sabbath. This seems illogical to put it mildly. 2. Whereas the heavens and the moon in particular were created on the 4th day, the first Sabbath fell on the 7th day, 3 days later? maybe it was a full moon on the 7th day, Adam and Eve's first full day? 3. The fifty day countdown to pentecost really doesn't work using this system unless you consider New Moon days to be effectivelly Non-days! i.e they are not included in the count. Interested in the opinion of others on these questions.