Troubleshooter

"Those who disbelieve in the seventh-day Sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, – THE CROSS. This is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible Sabbath."

Adventist Yearbook 1883 (capitalization emphasis in original)

What they meant by 'Bible Sabbath' was the problem of the crucifixion not being on a Julian Friday in A.D. 31...
...it remains a problem for which they have no answer.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

peg

Trouble -

The way you wrote this I'm just not sure...
Is the above a quotation from Adventist Yearbook?

Pegg

__________________
Then...Jesus asked them a question: "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son is He?"
Matt. 22:41-42

Sophia7

There is a copy of that page from the Adventist Yearbook here. That statement is at the bottom left corner. The issue that Troubleshooter has raised is discussed in an article on that same site, which apparently advocates lunar Sabbath observance.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

peg

Well if that isn't a hoot...! nt

__________________
Then...Jesus asked them a question: "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose Son is He?"
Matt. 22:41-42

Troubleshooter

Hi Peg, you can find a copy of the original on the General Conference website here...
http://www.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=77&SortBy=2&ShowDateOrder=True

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

Troubleshooter, I went to the Karaite Korner site and read their explanations about lunar dating of the holy days. However, they do not list the weekly Sabbath as a holy day or holiday, so there is no explicit statement about whether they observe a lunar Sabbath. I think it would be inconsistent if they didn't, but it's not spelled out on their site, and I haven't yet found any other sites that address it. I'm just wondering if you have any documentation on that.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

Karaites are sometime described as Jewish Protestants...
...they believe essentially in sola-scripture OT.

Modern Karaites are not what they used to be...
...or as they were even at the time of William Miller...
...all Karaites ain't Karaites.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

Do you know where I can find information about the Sabbath practices of non-modern Karaites? I didn't see anything in my search to indicate whether they or modern Karaites observed lunar Sabbaths.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

Hi Sophia, I have been focusing on the biblical case for lunar Sabbaths.

I would like to know what William Miller understood about the Karaites...
...Grace Amadon seems to have had the inside track on that...
...a copy of her entire collection is in a secure research facility at Andrews apparently

Jewish sources seem to support the contention.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle” (Universal Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life. The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later] discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

I will post more info as I find it.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

That site that I linked to in post 23 has some material from the Grace Amadon Collection, but I haven't had a chance to read much of it yet. From what I have read on that and other sites, it appears that the Karaites in 1844 were not following the lunar model very closely. The Millerites must have calculated their dates based on what the Karaites would have been doing if they had stuck to the new-moon/barley-harvest timing, not on what they were actually doing at that time.

I suppose the Sabbath wasn't really on Miller's radar since he was never a sabbatarian, but it would have been rather inconsistent of the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers to accept Karaite dating for 1844 and A.D. 31 but not for the weekly Sabbath if, indeed, the Karaites practiced lunar Sabbath observance. Then again, Adventism adopted only a couple of Miller's proofs anyway, which of course originally pointed to 1843, and ignored those that didn't fit into their newly constructed prophetic framework. Selectivity in Adventist interpretations is nothing new.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

Yes, I think that is an excellent insight...
...William Miller employed the Karaite lunar calendar idea rather than the systems observed by the Karaites in the early 1800's.


William Miller was not concerned about the Sabbath...
...or the crucifixion...
...his focus was on the accurate termination of the 2300 days/years...
...so it is not clear if he applied the lunar Sabbath to the 31 AD date.

It seems he may have only seen 27 AD as the beginning of John the Baptists ministry and not Jesus baptism...
...and 31 AD as the beginning of Jesus ministry not His crucifixion...
...so he too was either selective or in the heat of the moment did not consider it...
...William Miller seems to have still held to a 33 AD crucifixion...
...because of the need to coincide a Friday/Sabbath/Passover.

Grace Amadon saw the lunar Sabbath solution for a 31 AD crucifixion...
...but seems to have resisted the obvious implications for the weekly Sabbath.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

In this post, I believe you are confusing the Hebrew religious calendar with the civil calendar. Besides the fact that I cannot find any documentation that Karaites based the 7th day Sabbath from the lunar cycle there are several other problems inherent in your post.

1) According to the Bible, the weekly cycle of 7 days runs independently of the monthly and annual cycles.

This truth is apparent even from the Genesis narrative because the sun and moon come into existence on the 4th day, not the 1st. The 7 day week does not begin with their rotation but it began independently of these heavenly bodies. (See Gen 1:14-19)

2) The 7th day Sabbath was observed before the annual festivals were commanded (See Exodus 16) and it was commanded based on the 6 work days followed by 7th day rest of God at creation (See Exodus 20:8-11).

These Scriptures show the week and the corresponding 7th day Sabbath to be independent of the moon’s rotation and based upon the Divine time sequence of 6 days followed by the 7th day of rest.

3) The Jews had a civil calendar of an ancient order which they followed before their religious calendar (7th month long) came into effect. They continued using this calendar alongside with the religious calendar.

“That the Jews must have had a system of intercalculation by which the lunar calendar was brought into harmony with the natural solar year is implied in the law regarding the Passover fearst. This law required that the feast be kept unchangeably in the middle of the first month (Lev 23:5) but also connected it with the barley harvest by requiring the offering of a sheaf of the firstfruits (Lev 23:10,11). Thus the calendar was probably corrected by the insertion of embolismic months whenever needed to let the Passover occur at the beginning of the barley harvest. (The Chronology of Ezra 7 pg 56 by S.H. Horn)

“Moses, however, appointed Nisan, that is to say Xanthicus, as the first month for the festivals, because it was in this month that he brought the Hebrews out of Egypt; he also reckoned this month as the commencement of the year for everything relating to divine worship, but for selling and buying and other ordinary affairs he preserved the ancient order” (Josephus Antiquities 1.3.3)

Therefore, the attempt to make the 7th day Sabbath dependent upon the lunar cycle is unfounded. It has no Biblical support and Seventh-day Adventists see from Scripture that the weekly cycle is independent of both the sun and moon’s rotations. The 7 day week is an expression of God’s sovereignty over time and it stands upon the authority of His Word alone. Seriously, what other reason can we present as to why a week ought to be 7 days long? There is none other except God's example at creation.

Last but not least, the objective reason to support a 31 AD crucifixion date comes from mathematics. The only decree given by a Persian king that 483 years later brings you up to Christ is the 457 BC decree of Artaxerxes. This is the one fact that no critic can refute.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

This is not about what you and I believe...
...it is about the information William Miller relied on to establish 22 October 1844...
...William Miller was dependant on a calendar that presupposed a lunar Sabbath calculation...
...this is how he was able to establish 31 AD...
...because by using a lunar calendar every Passover coincided with a Sabbath...
...so the crucifixion could have been any year during the years 26 AD through 36 AD.

The bible may or may not support a Sabbath determined by a lunar calculation...
...and it was not an issue for William Miller because he was not a Sabbatarian...
...it only creates a paradox for SDA's...
...who establish their origin on one basis and their Sabbath on another.


You will have to be more specific...
...I am unable to find support for you argument in the texts you have quoted.


This quote does not say the Sabbath was dependant on the civil solar year.

The intercalculation was only a device to bring the beginning of the lunar year into sync with the Barley harvest...
...the first Passover occurred at a full moon when the Barley was ripe...
...adding a 'leap month' (moonth) simply allowed the shorter lunar cycle to catch up to the solar cycle.


So was the Sabbath an 'ordinary affair' or 'divine worship'?

Consider these quotes...

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle” (Universal Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

“The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life. The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later] discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

Schaff Herzog and the Universal Jewish ency both state the early Sabbath of the Israelites was dependent on the New Moon AND that while usually the length in days between Sabbaths was 6 days, depending on the lunar month, it could sometimes as much as eight between Sabbaths.

Greg Goodchild

SDAs lay claim to the fact that Jesus knows what He was talking about in the 70 week prophecy. All the paradoxes are not a problem for Jesus for He is the Lord of the Sabbath, the Lord of Prophecy, and the Lord of Salvation. When He prophesied the 70 week prophecy and when He said He would die in the middle of the 70th week He knew what He is talking about for He is God.

Troubleshooter

Jesus is not the paradox Greg...
...the basis for SDAism's origin and choice of Sabbath is the paradox.

The year 31 AD may well be the crucifixion year...
...and it is easily establish on the basis of a Lunar Sabbath.

However, this confirmation has a downside...
...it destroys the basis of a perpetual Sabbath based on a Gregorian Lunar calendar.

SDA's criticize Roman Catholicism for changing the Sabbath...
...but are guilty of the same error.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Pure rubbish.

The year 31 AD is established on the basis of mathematics. Your whole theory about the Passover day does not stand because you can't even prove what method the Jews used to determine the day back in Jesus' time.

The 7th day Sabbath is established on the Divine pattern seen at creation and commanded in the Decalogue.

SDA's claim (and it is confirmed by our Catholic friends) that the papal system has attempted to transfer the sanctity of the 7th day to the 1st day of the week.

In no way are SDA's guilty of the same error.

The lunar Sabbath day has no Biblical evidence behind it. End of story.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Did that hit a nerve or what?

There are about twelve Biblical criterion that need to be satisfied to have the crucifixion occur in a given year...
...one is that the 14th Nisan must fall on a day before the Sabbath...
...you and your SDA mates have no way of satisfying this criteria...
...without appealing to a Lunar Calendar as William Miller did...
...this is not my problem GW...it's yours...
...solve it or shelve it.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

I do not know how to bump to another thread but your problem has already been solved. You did not reply to it there so I will put it up again here.

Thank you Troubleshooter,

Piecing together all of the information that you have provided I am going to summarize your problem with the 457 BC to 27, 31, 34 AD timeline. Here it is:

When Jesus died the weekly Sabbath and annual Passover day lined up so therefore He had to have died in 30 AD or 33 AD because these are the only 2 years during Pilate’s reign where Nisan 15 fell on the weekly Sabbath. Your reference for this information is Table 179, Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Revised Edition)

The reason why I asked this question Troubleshooter is that the answer reveals an inherent problem. Namely that the Passover dates given today for the 26-36 AD era are based on modern scientific calculations.

Please note, I am quoting from one of your listed resources here. There are so many things to say here but let’s deal with one issue at a time.

Issue # 1: There is no evidence to show that astronomical calculations were how the Passover day was determined back in Jesus’ day. We have to admit the possibility that the barley harvest was the determining factor.

Truthfully there are several variables that make it a technical impossibility for us to know even the exact month when Jesus died. We know the season (i.e. springtime) and we know the day (give or take a day) thanks to the Gospel accounts but we do not know the month with absolute certainty. Well why not?

“The difficulty with regard to the month is to know how the commencement of the Jewish year was fixed- in what years an extra month was intercalculated before Nisan. If the Paschal full moon was, as in later Christian times, the first after the spring equinox, the difficulty would be reduced to the question on what day the equinox was reckoned. If, on the other hand, it was, as in ancient Jewish times, the first after the earliest ears of the barley harvest would be ripe, it would have varied with the forwardness or backwardness of the season from year to year.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Do you see the problem? We do not know what method the Jews of Jesus’ day were using to calculate the Passover day. Were they using the spring equinox or where they using the barley harvest?

“Direct material for answering the question when and how far astronomical calculations replaced simple observations as the basis of the Jewish calendar is not forthcoming.” (ibid)

Even more so, that creates another potential problem.

“The difficulty with regard to the day is, quite similarly, to know what precise relation the first day of the Jewish month bore to the astronomical new moon. In later Christian times the Paschal month was calculated from the astronomical new moon; in earlier Jewish times all month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new moon was visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some hours, and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical new moon.” (ibid)

If the religious calendar was determined by the sighting of the new moon then we have a range of 3 days due to unfavorable circumstances. This is why I wrote to you earlier the following statement:

There’s a lot more to say on this and other subjects but I have other responsibilities which I must fulfill. I hope to continue this dialogue with you at a later time. Until then, may God bless you and may His Spirit lead you into all truth.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

I ignored it because it was too deep in the thread and had drifting off topic...
...thanks for reposting it here...
...and you have not solved anything...you just keep redefining the paradox.


The solution I suggested here assumes a Julian calendar reckoning.

I suggested it as a solution because SDA's rely on the Julian/Gregorian calendar to determine their current Sabbath's...
...to be consistent with the Julian/Gregorian reckoning...
...the day Jesus died must be a Friday and the Passover must be a Saturday/Sabbath...
...this can only have occurred in the years 30 AD or 33 AD...
...if there was an intercalation (leap-month) in any of these years...
...the only year that could satisfy this criteria is 34 AD.

But you have no problem wih 31 AD if you use a Lunar weekly Sabbath reckoning...
...because the 15th Nisan in a Lunar calendar is always a weekly Sabbath...
...it's your best solution...
...but then you have to examine why you observe a Gregorian Saturday.


I thought you were prepared to take an objective view...
...so I provided source materials so that you could examine the issues for yourself...
...I should have realized you would use them to support your 'cherished' position.

The 1938 General Conference Research Committee understood the issues...
...and Grace Amadon continued the research for many years after this...
...the subject deserves more than a cursory look.


This is only a problem if you are trying to work from the perspective of a Julian calendar...
...the Lunar/Solar and Julian calendars do not coincide...
...a Julian Saturday only occasionally concides wth a Sabbath.

But you have no problem with the 31 AD date if like William Miller you use a Lunar reckoning...
...because the 15th Nisan in a Lunar calendar is always a Lunar weekly Sabbath.


So it's ok to determine the origin of Adventism to the exact day of 22 October 1844 (a Gregorian Tuesday)...
...but the Lord could not have been crucified on the exact day?

The Bible and Ellen White said Jesus died on a 'preparation day'...
...and Jesus rested in Joseph's tomb on a Sabbath that was a Passover...
...you simply don't have the luxury GW of fudging it for three days...
...if you insist on determining the weekly Sabbath by the Julian calendar.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

As I am reading your post I am seeing more clearly why we cannot find harmony on the matter. There are so many things to be said but for the time being I am going to deal with your assertion that 30 AD and 33 AD are the only years were Passover and the weekly 7th day Sabbath lined up.

Again, I would love for you to show how you have reached this conclusion.

On what basis did you or the scholars you are quoting pick the month Nisan (March or April) from these years?

And what evidence can you offer that shows that their calculations are a match for what the Jews of Jesus’ day were doing to calculate the Passover?

The problem that you have, which so far you have not recognized, is that you have absolutely no proof that the Jews of Jesus’ day were using the same method that you are for calculating the Passover. As the quote I put up from the Encyclopedia Brittannica explained, we do not have any direct material for answering the question as to when and how far astronomical calculations replaced observation as the basis of the Jewish calendar.

“Many have thought that the date of the crucifixion can be determined very easily by computing the date of a new moon or a full moon by means of astronomical tables. A discussion of two points [will] show the complexity and uncertainty of such computation.

The application of to lunar data to the problem of finding any Passover date in New Testament times involves two variable factors. The choice must be made between the March new moon and the April new moon in any given year the basis for identifying the month of Nisan. Then the astronomical new moon (conjunction) must be calculated backward from modern lunar tables with small but sometimes significant margin of error. Finally the interval between that point and the visible crescent must be calculated, according to astronomical or calendrical thory, in order to arrive at the most probable sunset for the beginning of the first day of the month. It must be remembered that our lack of exact knowledge of the actual practices of those times may lead us to choose the wrong month or the wrong day: consequently no result is more than a probability.” (SDABC Vol 5. Pg 254)

Do you see the problem? And by the way, this is just one of them. There are some other more complex ones that involve certain other presuppositions inherent in the Passover dating systems. I am not even going to get into it because I don't have that type of time.

But anyway back to your current problem. You are using a method to prove your case but you cannot show that the Jews of Jesus’ day were using it themselves. Therefore, even if your calculations of the 1st month (you only have March or April so there’s a 50% chance) and when the crescent became visible in that month are correct, you still cannot say that the Jews would have started their month on that exact same date. If they were using the sighting of the New Moon as the basis for the start date then there is a range of 3 days flexibility for the starting day due to unfavorable circumstances.

I don’t think you are understanding me correctly Troubleshooter. I am not changing the day of the crucifixion (Friday) nor when the Passover lamb was eaten (after sunset, hence the beginning of the 7th day Sabbath), those are established Bible facts. What I am trying to show you is that there is a range of 3 days from when the New Moon occurred in which the Jews could have started counting the days of their 1st month. Therefore there is no guarantee that New Moon had to occur 14 days before Friday in order to have the 14th day of Nissan occur on a Friday that year. All that had to happen is that the New Moon had to have occurred within a 3 day range of 14 days before Friday. Now if we are still on the same page, I suppose I could take the time to present some evidence showing the plausibility of this back in 31 AD but let’s see what happens as a result of this post first. Until then...

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

You use convergent argument to support a 457 BC beginning...
...but divergent reasoning to deflect support for any date except 31 AD.

All I want you or any SDA to give me is a case for a 31 AD crucifixion of Christ...
...that fits the criteria of the biblical witness.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Even when an individual does this you do not accept it. And here's an even more poignant problem, you have established a false criteria! You say that only 30 AD and 33 AD can fit as the year of the crucifixion.

There's an inherent problem in your statement and I was hoping to help you see it so I asked you to explain how you have reached this conclusion:

And what response to I get? You talk about convergent argument and divergent arguments. Is that all you can say? Lol! You’re hilarious. How about some answers to the questions?

You long for a SDA to give you a case for the 31 AD crucifixion of Christ but you do not even acknowledge the information that has been given to you thus far. If the 14th of Nisan was counted out from when someone saw the new moon then we have some flexibility that allows for a Passover/Sabbath correspondence without necessarily having the new moon 14 days before Friday. This is very plausible and the truth of the matter is that no one can settle this issue conclusively. Your system depends on astronomical calculations and does not take into consideration the human factor and/or unfavorable conditions. This alone invalidates your point and I haven't even begun to mention the other variable factors.

Do you know how complicated this issue is? I don’t even know where to begin. Perhaps we should discuss the fact that scholars are uncertain as to what years the Jews added an extra month to keep the Passover in line with the barley festival. Or maybe we can talk about how Biblical evidence is divided as to which day the Passover actually was the year that Jesus died. John’s Gospel puts it one day later than the synoptic Gospels do. Do I need to keep going? There are even more issues that could be mentioned.

Now here’s the final boil down for me. I have an interpretation of Daniel 9 that fits all of the Biblical data quite well. My argument is mathematical. 538, 520, 457 and 444 BC are the potential starting dates for the Daniel 9 prophecy. We know the range that must be produced due to the New Testament (i.e. Herod the Great, 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, festival counts in the Gospel of John) and the only decree that works naturally is 457. I can prove the 457 BC date without a problem (thank you Ptolemy’s canon and the double-dated scrolls in Elephantine Egypt) and with this starting date the 490 years ends in 34 AD. Calculating the components of the last week (7 years) into the equation produces 27, 31 and 34 AD. Thanks to Luke’s testimony about the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, John’s festival count and Paul’s timeline in Galatians 2, these dates all fit well into the picture.

Even an ex-Adventist critic admitted to me that I had an interpretation that fit! What do you have? I have yet to see an alternative interpretation that works like this one. Oh I hear a lot of complaints and bickering but no other interpretation that even comes close to harmonizing all the data like the 457 BC interpretation. All I hear from you is a complaint that 31 AD can’t possibly fit because of the Passover/Sabbath line-up and yet the method by which you derive this criticism is a fallacy. I’m sorry brother but you’re going to have to come with something better than that.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Please allow me to walk you throught the detail...

The synoptic evidence...

Mark 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."


Luke 23:54 "And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on".


John 19:14-16 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour:...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away."

John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day)"


Ellen confirms this for you...

"At last Jesus was at rest. The long day of shame and torture was ended. As the last rays of the setting sun ushered in the Sabbath, the Son of God lay in quietude in Joseph's tomb. His work completed, His hands folded in peace, He rested through the sacred hours of the Sabbath day.

With this scene the day upon which Jesus rested is forever linked. For "His work is perfect;" and "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever." Deut. 32:4; Eccl. 3:14. When there shall be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph's tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as "from one Sabbath to another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb." Ellen White DA Chapter 80

"That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb." Ibid

So far we have the following...

That the Sabbath was also a Passover and if you believe Sabbath = Saturday...
...then Jesus died on a Friday and was in Joseph's tomb on a Saturday/Sabbath...
...which was also a Passover.

So can we agree with this detail so far?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Gospel_Way

Test Question:

Do you understand the method whereby the scholars that you quoted determined the Passover day?

If so could you please explain it to me?

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

Following is March and April from the Julian calendar 31 AD...
...showing the phases of the moon in these two months.

I have shown two lunar months to allow for the possibility of an intercalated lunar month in that year.






The full moon does not fall on a Friday/Saturday in either month.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

GW are you going to comment on this?

The Julian calendar for any year is easy to reproduce.
Here is one place where you can do it...
http://www.calendarhome.com/

The lunar data is available form various sources...
U.S. Naval Observatory

NASA Eclipse WebSite - Phases of the Moon 1 to 100
http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Troubleshooter

Neither March or April 31 AD fits with Ellen either...

"In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims' tents was hushed into silence." DA 685

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

I'm not getting what the hold up is here with accepting the facts. The Universal Jewish Ency, Schaff - Herzog and Scripture all attest to the fact that the Religious Authority within Judaism had the right to adjust the calendar.

If anything, Judaism, in creating a perpetual cycle of 7 day weeks throughout the year resulted in more Sabbath's being observed both from a lunar, solar or luni-solar year. You would always have only 6 days from Sabbath to Sabbath instead of a couple extra days depending on the month being 29 or 30 days in length.

A perfect argument for Oral Tradition being Biblically binding.

Troubleshooter

Hi Pythons, I appreciate your contribution to this forum.

The 'hold up' is because this issue is focused on the origin and heart of SDAism.

If they admit to the paradox they have to re-evaluate 1844, the Sabbath or both.

An appeal to oral tradition won't fix this.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Gospel_Way

Hello Troubleshooter,

You still haven’t answered the questions

An answer like this would suffice: The scholars that I am quoting have determined that the Jews of Jesus’ day were calculating the Passover by…(such and such a method,…) The ancient sources which testify to this truth are...(so and so,…)

Somehow though I doubt you will be able to do this. Why?

“Direct material for answering the question when and how far astronomical calculations replaced simple observations as the basis of the Jewish calendar is not forthcoming.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Without such a witness your whole theory falls flat because it fails to consider the probable human element involved in calculating the Passover day.

“Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 12, p. 1039)

Now regarding the calendars that you have put up, in AD 31 we have a new moon occurring on a Tuesday, April 10th. This date, if accurate, works with a Friday Passover because of the 3 day interval permissible from the conjunction.

“In earlier Jewish times all month were reckoned to begin at the first sunset when the new moon was visible, which in the most favorable circumstances would be some hours, and in the most unfavorable three days, later than the astronomical new moon.”(The Encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition Vol 3. pg 890)

Thus a Tuesday conjunction, with a 3-day interval, brings us to Friday.

Now let’s deal with another issue that you have mentioned.

For the sake of our dialogue, I am going to make an assumption that you have gotten the days correct on the calendar that you posted. In April 31 AD you have the full moon on Wednesday the 25th. The Savior’s traveling to Gethsemane, in the EGW quote that you mentioned, would be happening on Thursday the 26th. This is not a problem in the slightest. Why? Because an astronomical full moon does not always fall exactly at the midpoint between 2 lunar conjunctions. Sometimes they appear as quickly as 13 days, 21 hr and 53 minutes or other times as much as 15 days, 14 hours and 30 minutes. Thus mathematically speaking the full moon could have been on that Thursday.

Again the 31 AD date fits within the Biblical criteria and when one considers the previously established fact that 457 BC is the only workable starting date for the Daniel 9 timeline and it yields 27, 31 and 34 AD when the math is done, one has to be very obstinate to persist in rejecting it.

Now there is one last point that I will make here. And this one is regarding the matter of interpreting Ellen White’s writings. How should we understand her quote from Desire of Ages pg 685? Should we interpret her as saying that she saw the astronomical full moon? Her paragraph here is a vivid description of the Savior’s movements on Thursday night and she describes the conditions of the city and night.

Are you aware of the fact that the moon on the night before and after the astronomical full moon (in this case Tuesday and Thursday) has virtually the exact same lumination? It is distinguishable from the astronomical full moon only to the expert eye. So, just for argument’s sake and speaking hypothetically now, let’s pretend that the full moon was exactly 14 days after the conjunction so that it occurred Wednesday April 25th in 31 AD. Even if that is correct then Mrs. White’s statement about a full broad moon is regarding Thursday April 26th and on that day the moon would have looked just like a …guess what? Full Moon!

There are more things that need to be said but I believe the information I have provided here is sufficient to make my point. In all of these things, what I have said once I will say again because it deserves repeating.

Yours in Christ,
Gospel_Way

Troubleshooter

The two Julian calendar months are the heart of the 'scholars' data for ruling out 31 AD.

What is your case for 31 AD?

So far all you have given me is bluster about why any date can't be accurately established...
...which only works against your position.

I have no date preference and I don't need to establish my religious prophetic origin...
...through dubious date-setting schemes.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

I don't understand your issue over the Sabbath in the days of Jesus death. It appears to me that you are trying to settle a spiritual issue by logic and reason. You, of course are free to do so and to deal with whatever issues you feel a need to address.

From my perspective it is solved three ways, God said it, it is written in the Bible, EGW confirmed it. It would be nice for me to be able to solve all of your concerns so that your logic and reason were satisfied but it appears that even old Jack Finergan could not solve the issue absolutely. Therefore the issue, in my opinion, is faith rather than the logic. I believe that Friday was Passover, Sabbath was both a weekly Sabbath and it was Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Sunday was Wave sheaf offering.

In addition since I am settled on Sabbath as a sign of Jesus' eternal covenant, I believe that it will continue for ever since Jesus blessed His Sabbath day by resting on it, and then returning to the work of salvation on Sunday. So for me Sabbath is not a paradox, it is simply a matter of faith and obedience by faith.

pythons

Greg, if you would allow me a short intrusion into your discussion with T.S. I would like your comment on the following quote from Titus Flavius Clemens, AKA Clement of Alexandria who died approx 215 A.D. The quote can be read in full context at http://books.google.com/books?id=2iWtkQfDLfcC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=The+Stromata+for+if+the+moon+is+not+visible&source=bl&ots=vpI7MemUFY&sig=resO9DTGPVqEmAcd40FTmQwJ9O0&hl=en&ei=snhNSvmaFYKzlAe0tIy3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


This seems to be at the heart of the issue. What do you say to this quote?

tall73

Interesting quote there Pythons.

pythons

Notice how he said it as an afterthought. It wasn't like he was in debate that the Jews did it that way and another person was claiming that they didn't. I've got all the Church Father's in my bookshelf so I am going to have to read what they have said in relation to this. Odd I've read over the books many times and never put two and two togther on this issue. It appears to be accurate.

Troubleshooter

There is also evidence from the writings of Philo, Josephus and the Essenes...
...comfirming that it was Jewish practice to determine the weeks and sabbaths by the lunar cycle.
http://www.creationcalendar.com/CalendarIssue/16-PhiloJosephusEssenes.pdf

I do not have ready access to the works quoted...
...but here is a summary of several quotes from the article...

“Again, the periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven, that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. At all events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their preservation in accordance with this number seven. … Accordingly, on the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had made.”
Philo - Allegorical Interpretation, 1 IV (8)

Notice Philo's connection between lunar 'weeks' and 'creation week'.

It is obvious that his comments are simply descriptive of Jewish practice...
...like the following concerning Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles.

“But to the seventh day of the week he has assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown, and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced”
Philo - The Decalogue XXX (159)

Scripture clearly states that Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles begin on the 15th day of their respective months.

Leviticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Leviticus 23:34 The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

So Philo is confirming that the 15th of the month is a seventh day Sabbath every year...
...and always when the moon is full...

"And this feast is begun on the fifteenth day of the month, in the middle of the month, on the day on which the moon is full of light, in consequence on the providence of Elohim taking care that there shall be no darkness on that day.”
Philo’s Special Laws II, The Fifth Festival, Section XXVIII (155)

This coincidence of a weekly sabbath, 15th day of the month and a full moon every year...
...is not possible using a Julian/Gregorian calendar.


Elsewhere Philo confirms that weeks are determined by phases of the moon...

“…there is one principle of reason by which the moon waxes and wanes in equal intervals, both as it increases and diminishes in illumination; the seven lambs because it receives the perfect shapes in periods of seven days—the half-moon in the first seven day period after its conjunction with the sun,
full moon in the second; and when it makes its return again, the first is to half-moon, then it ceases at its conjunction with the sun.”
Philo - Special Laws I. (178)

...and he expresses it again while using an analogy...

“For it is said in the Scripture: On the tenth day of this month let each of them take a sheep according to his house; in order that from the tenth, there may be consecrated to the tenth, that is to Elohim, the sacrifices which have been preserved in the soul, which is illuminated in two portions out of the three, until it is entirely changed in every part, and becomes a heavenly brilliancy like a full moon, at the height of its increase at the end of the second week”.
Philo - On Mating with the Preliminary Studies, XIX (102)

The same article quotes from the Essenes and Josephus.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

Greg - I thank you for the quote but I am not sure what the heart of the issue is? Is the heart of this discussion what does one do with the moon, or is the heart of the issue what does Jesus want from us in reference to the Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, and Wave Sheaf; or is it what does Jesus want us to do regarding Sabbath?