Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,


I am sorry if you feel my posts are too "wordy..." Or is it that you find my "wordy comments" too long or too deep for you to carefully study and consider? Or perhaps, as happens so often among men! - You'd certainly not be alone in so doing..., that you've invested so much into this line of thought of yours that you are unwilling to admit the obvious, when it is staring you in your face? Or else, as is also all too common among men, that you've become so deeply colored by your present line of thought that you've lost touch with the firm foundations vs. such as, at the point of your beginning thinking this way, gave a false appearance of being a firm foundation, whereas in reality it was not? Somewhat along the line of your prior thinking that 1883 occurred some 40 years after (sic) 1939... rather than some 56 years before?

Well, be that as it may... And please don't take that as an offense! It is certainly not intended as such, merely as a friendly reminder and a call for being just a tad more willing to look more deeply into the beginnings of your own line of thought. So please, bear with my "wordy comments" just a tad more, or preferably until we both are satisfied that we have arrived at a correct understanding of the best available data touching upon the most important parts of this "Adventist Sabbath Paradox" of yours.

Please remember, and do not forget, that I remain indeed very thankful to you for a number of things of great importance to me re the particulars upon which this thread is touching! Thank you very much indeed for all of that! But back to the focus of this thread of yours...:


* * * * * * * *


No evidence in support of your contention that the Millerites perceived the Karaite calendar as being tied to a lunar driven week or Sabbath

It remains to be shown... - Please, before reading this post you should study carefully my post at:
It remains to be shown that neither (that is, besides that which pertains to the 1938/39 SDA GC Research Committee) is there any evidence brought forth, that I’ve seen thus far within this thread, in support of William Miller and his followers perceiving the Karaite calendar - which they were indeed using - as being a calendar with lunar driven weeks or Sabbaths – that is, other than touching the seven special Sabbaths within the three plus annual feasts ordained forever per Leviticus 23.

But, I have already shown (cf. item #6 in my prior post as copied also below!) that the RC Committee was making yet another mistake… That is, a mistake re how the Millerites came up with the October 22, 1844 AD date, based, not upon monthly New Moon crescent observations as the Karaites consistently are using, but, per the mistaken Committee belief, upon an assumption that, once the beginning of Nisan was determined, all of the remainder of the annual feast days were also exactly fixed and determined – not only to the month, but to the exact day.

So far as I have seen, neither you, nor anyone, has succeeded in coming up with anything of substance in support of the Karaites ever using a lunar driven week or a lunar driven weekly Sabbath. Yes, you’ve provided reference to a number of quotes from various so called authoritative encyclopedias and other references - mostly by way of the 4AngelsPublications website - that are suggesting that possibly the weeks were originally also controlled by the New Moon crescent, but it is clear from their words that those suggestions are little or nothing more than assumptions without a documented and firm foundation, that is, so far as provided within the given references… I might add that it has been suggested by excellent scientists that somewhere within ancient history the length of the lunar cycle was different than now, even exactly 28 days, and that the number of lunar months in a solar year was different also, at some point in time perhaps no more than ten - and I find those studies very interesting and exciting, yet, there too, I have not thus far to find the solid documents and facts to prove it!!! Then too, was that to prove true in the end, that still does not in anyway remove the likelihood or possibility that the seven day 'hepta circadian' rhythm in nature has ever been broken between creation and now, that is, the seven day week as reckoned by Seventh-day Adventist since the mid-1840ies...

In my New Testament and First Century chronology studies over the last seven or so years I have found and published on the web ample evidence to show that the seven day week reckoned and used by Jesus and his disciples, as well as by Jews generally, is the same seven day week as currently honored by Seventh-day Adventists most everywhere, and is, or was, not a lunar driven Sabbath. Anyone willing to challenge my on that, is invited to do so by diving deeply into the heart and basics of our website adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io and then to help me approach even more the ultimate solution and exactness re God's Scripture Calendar, and re God's own reckoning of time!


Again, please forgive me for my "wordy comments" while truly doing my very best in trying to point out to you the obvious foundations as hidden beneath all the rubbish on top!


Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)



My prior post as referenced above:

pythons

It is my understanding that the weekly Sabbaths ran concurrent with the Jewish liturgical year so that a Karite Jew would celebrate a weekly Sabbath at the same time a Rabbinic Jew would. Perhaps I didn't understand the point as you intended it.

Troubleshooter

The calendar William Miller used to establish The Day of Atonement in 1844...
...used a lunar Sabbath...
...weekly Sabbaths fell on day 8, 15, 22 and 29 of each calendar month...
...this was the way Sabbaths were kept until about the 4th Century.

See discussion...
http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/jews_and_sabbath.php

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

You are right. I never realized that previously! It's stated with velocity in the New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia pages 135 - 136. The various other sources indicate that the origin of change was simply commerce.

I'm not sure the average person would understand how this effected it without first understanding how subsequent calendars from the one stated in the Exodus do affect 'days'.

I can certainly see the paradox! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Troubleshooter

You may also be interested in another article on that site...
... in a talk-back radio discussion...
...on January 5, 2006 Roman Catholic scholar/apologist Patrick Madrid...
...confirmed the historical change from lunar to solar reckoning of 'days'...
...stating that neither Saturday nor Sunday is the Biblical Sabbath.

http://www.4angelspublications.com/articles/catholic_scholar.php


I do not support the central idea of this site, that lunar Sabbaths should now be observed...
...I am reminded of Paul's criticism of the Galatians...

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

...and his comments to the Colossians...

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Colossians 2:16-17


So although lunar determined Sabbaths are the true Biblical Sabbaths...
...they are of no consequence to believers under the New Covenant...
...except as part of the Old Covenant 'shadow' whose reality was fulfilled in Christ.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Haldog

And why would anyone want to go back to those things?

My wife and I were just discussing how so many of the SDA's are fixated on worshiping on the Sabbath Day.

What do they mean by worship? In my experience they may have a Friday evening bible reading with family, then they go to church on Sabbath morning and spend their time in SS telling each other how wonderful Ellen is, then they move on into the sanctuary and hear the preacher talk about how wonderful Ellen is and maybe even something about Jesus. Then they go to the fellowship hall and eat the potluck and talk with their friends about work and the kids (rarely about the goodness of God). On the drive home they will share with the spouse all the good gossip that was heard between church and SS and during the potluck. Get home and sleep and then look forward to sundown so they can turn the TV on.

What about that is Sabbath Keeping? And yet they will profess to having kept the Sabbath because they didn't pay cash for lunch or fill the car up with gas.

__________________

Sophia7

We just returned a few days ago from a vacation to visit my parents and my sister. They are not traditional Adventists on many issues, including Sabbath-keeping. They go to church on Sabbath, but otherwise they do regular everyday activities. While we were there, we went out to eat with them on Sabbath after church and then went to the zoo with my sister and her daughter. That's how I was raised. However, they are upset that we no longer agree with the Adventist view of the Sabbath even though they don't hold to strict standards at all to govern their behavior on that day. I guess claiming to believe in the Sabbath is all that's important to some Adventists.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

idolatrous - definition

Given to blind or excessive devotion to something:

"It perceives no virtue in its opponents and magnifies its own" Christopher Lasch

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

Perhaps so. My family hasn't studied the issues in depth, and they don't pay much attention to the details, but they are devoted to the Sabbath, at least as a concept.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

It's not a biggie...
...and I did not mean to be judgemental...
...I too have friends and relatives who have blind or excessive devotion to the Sabbath...
...I just saw the connection with idolatry...
...I wondered if the Lord made His rests to rely on the more organic lunar cycles...
...so that they would be less repeatitious and hence less prone to idolatry.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Flyinglady

Thanks for all this information. I understand Paul much better.
Diana

__________________
God is so awesome all the time :)

willy

A Wednesday crucifxion is the true biblical day, as opposed to the traditional Catholic Friday, so at this point the sda's need only admit that Ellen was in error over that day, not the sabbath or 1844.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

pythons

Willy, would you hail from an Adventist group like the C.O.G.? 1844 requires a 27 April date. Pull that one bolt out and the golem collapses.

willy

Glad you didn't assume more, as you hopefully know any admission of error on the part of Ellen would be a grievous sin of insurmountable consequences,
no real sda would even consider the possibility that Ellen made any error even if it was to save the blessed sabbath or the sanctuary doctrine.

No I just believe in a Wednesday crucifixion because of the Passover patter as opposed to the easter bunny format.

I think the Golem would be most uncomfortable with where I would place Millers chart.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

pythons

LOL. You've got some humor and I like it!

That went right over my head man. I think that there is a real case for 3 April 33 myself but that's just me.

LOL. Miller's chart is what it is. After reading what it took the Grace Amadon group to map out the Miller beliefs I thought I was in danger of a stroke. The 1844 I.J. is a classic Golem in my view, it serves to help keep the sheep in check.

willy

Like any good monster story, inevitably the monster must turn on it's master, in this case the gentle prediction that was supposed to guide the faithful to the heavenly kingdom in 1844 has turned on them and has stolen their joy in a fearful expectation of a judgment in which perfection is required.

In my understanding of Golem mythology he was commanded by a scroll placed in his mouth, of course it never went as ordered, hey you really did pick a good analogy!!!

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

Troubleshooter

I have reviewed several arguements for a Wednesday crucifixion...
...I have found none of them very convincing...
...but I would like to hear your reasons.

I understand the argument primarily relies on Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Where a literal 'three nights and three days' is stictly applied...
...and 'heart of the earth' is taken to mean 'dead' or 'in the tomb'.

Is this how you understand it?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

willy

Christ followed the Passover pattern, on the tenth of Nissan the Passover lamb was brought into the "house" and was kept until the 14th.

This directly coincides with Christ entering Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, so in 4 days he would be sacrificed, adding 4 days to Sunday brings you to Wednesday. His death being in the evening one would then count off the three days and nights he said would bring you to sometime after sundown on Saturday for the resurrection, the scripture records it was in the A.M. on Sunday.

This holds to the P.O pattern and allows for the language in the account to be accurate also when it records Sabbaths plural.

There is also time between to account for the purchase of spices by the women after the Passover Sabbath but before the weekly one.

It would also be impossible to get 1.5 to 2 million people out of Egypt and to the other side of the red sea in one day, three full days would have been required to make the journey.

And yes I believe Christ said in the heart of the earth to mean Sheol, the place of the dead, Jonah records that he called to God from Sheol.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

Troubleshooter

An interesting set of assumptions Willy.

I agree

Why do you think Jesus entered Jerusalem on Sunday?


So you are assuming the Hebrew calendar was running parallel to a weekly calendar that was identical to the Julian calendar?

Do you know of another example of this in scripture?


Hmmm...ok.


When do you think they started the journey?


Have you ever tried to apply this scheme to a timeline?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

willy

Doing so on the Sabbath would not have been in accordance with the law, and would have been counter productive to Christ's goal of Jewish conversion to Him.

There also was the need to fill the pattern of Passover type, the day also works because counting back wards from a Sunday resurrection, a fairly well established point, the accounting of days is perfect.

Actually I never considered it, the primary reason I don't see it as a factor is that what ever year, or calender that was in place at his death, it lines up with the prophecy's of his death, the key component is Sunday, the first fruits was a Sunday based festival as was Weeks, each of these lines up with a Sunday resurrection.

This means that unleavened bread, first fruits, and Weeks (Pentecost) all lined up with the Hebrew festival timing while passover did not?


Hmmm...ok.

You don't see the significance do you, read Luke 23:56
Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

This means that while Christ was still on the cross they were out buying spices, but the Gospel accounts say that they followed Joseph to the tomb.

The women needed to purchase and prepare them all on Friday after following Christ to the Tomb which was no sooner than 4:00 since he did not die until 3:00 get back to town just as sabbath is starting and purchase "kosher" spices from Jews on Sabbath and then prepare them all before sundown at 6:00 very fast women. (which actually was impossible because one account says they were with him until sundown.)

When do you think they started the journey?

14th of Nissan

Have you ever tried to apply this scheme to a time line?

This is not my creation, most Jews who convert to Christianity believe in a Wednesday Crucifixion, it has been done by many authors, Kevin Conner, Alfred Edershiem, Bruce Scott, and yes I have personally laid out the timing of the events against the Passover pattern and they fit perfectly with Wednesday being the day.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

Troubleshooter

The following chart fits the 'Passover model'...
...the timeline begins with "...Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany..."
...this would be Nisan 9 and then entering Jerusalem as you suggest on Nisan 10.



A suggested parallel Julian calendar reckoning is included...
...but this could only apply in 30 AD and 33 AD.

Any comments?

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

jda3324

Trouble, I have been fascinated by this thread and appreciate all your hard work.

Question on the Chart. I see only 3 days and 2 nights in the tomb for Jesus. Jesus said he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights.

Ghostrider 3

Troubleshooter

The text actually uses the term 'heart of the earth' not 'in the tomb'...
...and I think that Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' from the moment He was arrested in Gethemane...
...as soon as He was under the sovereignty of 'earthy' men, in the sense that Paul uses it in 1 Corinthians 15:47-49

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Jesus references to His death and resurrection are always accompanied by reference to His betrayal and ill-treatment.

"From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." Matthew 16:21

"Jesus said unto them, the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again." Matthew 17:22

"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise again." Matthew 20:18

"Son of man must suffer many things and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Mark 8:31

"For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day." Mark 9:31

"...and they shall mock Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill Him, and the third day He shall rise again." Mark 10:34

"Saying, the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." Luke 9:22

"Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished, for He shall be delivered unto the Gentiles and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on, and they shall scourge Him, and put Him to death, and the third day He shall rise again." Luke 18:31

"The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of men, crucified, and the third day rise again." Luke 24:7

"And said unto them, thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day." Luke 24:46


So Jesus was 'in the heart of the earth' as soon as this process began...
...until the resurrection...
...'three days and three nights'.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

willy

It makes no accounting of the women and when they were preparing and purchasing of the spices, scripture indicates they rested after the purchase of the spices.

It also fails to take into account Hebrew law about death, to be legally dead under Hebrew law a person needs to be dead 3 full days not partial days, this was not a technicality of ritual but a literal requirement, the thought was that the spirit lingered for 3 days, so the partial day accounting method does not work, Christ used the principle with Lazarus.

Christ was required to fulfill all aspects of ther law including being legally dead, a partial day would mean he was not dead under the law.

I could see that entry was on the 10th a Monday, many think that a Thursday Crucifixion was likely I can see why now, but I would disagree with it on Friday because that would place his death 4 days from the 10th.

The one thing I see most Christians do that Jews do not is relate Passover to Christ's death, actually Passover was about the exit from Egypt, so Christ's death would follow that pattern,

I am also unsure why he created a gap in his diagram in regards to the Passover he "ends"
the PO at midnight Thursday and then resumes it on Friday at noon, that makes no sense except to fit the Crucifixion on the desired Friday.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

Troubleshooter

John 19:38-42 "And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand."

Jesus died at 3:00pm and sunset in April in Jerusalem is approximately 6:00pm...
...Joseph and Nicodemus applied 100 pounds weight of myrh and aloes...
...and had Jesus wrapped in linen and layed in the new garden tomb.

Anything the women did would simply have been adjunctive...
...probably as a mark of respect...
...it is unclear from the text when they purchased spices.


While Jesus fulfilled 'the law'...
...I don't think that means all the midrah and casuistry that attached itself to 'the law'.

A spear in the side and no need to break His legs...
...I think Roman soldiers knew when someone in their charge was dead.


Jesus did enter on the 10th and He did die on the 14th...
...if the 10th Nisan was a Monday, then Friday was the 14th Nisan...
...where do you get the Thursday from?


I think the Exodus Passover was engineered to prophetically describe Jesus death.


The gap in the chart is only because it has been stretched...
...it was not done to indicate any sessation in the Passover season of feasts.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

jaman

This tends to suggest that a very complicated 7 day cycle coinciding with a lunar calendar was in use.

Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,


1.

First of all, let me commend you on your clear, concise, and accurate presentation of The Adventist Sabbath Paradox as found within parts of the above post of yours (as also quoted in part below.)

- In your post you are indeed showing that, in 31AD, Abib/Nisan 14 and the Day of Passover (the day prior to the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) did fall out on a Tuesday/Wednesday (April 24/25) and that the subsequent Day, the First Day of the Feast, Abib 15, did not fall out on a Seventh-day Sabbath, beginning on a Friday night at sunset, as required by the Gospels and by Ellen White both. [This is very easily confirmed by using the tools found at the following links: 1) nr.com/julian.txt and 2) eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html while looking for a full moon in Abib/Nisan/month number 1, falling between April 8 and May 6, as required by the reckoning of the Millerites, i.e. as per the General Conference Committee report (Part V, p.9, l.3) of SDAs in 1938/1939 (cf. 4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF)]

- I find this a most important observation of yours! One requiring further study into the reality upon which the Holy Scriptures are indeed based! So how are we doing on that study of ours? Are we doing as the Bereans did? Or, are we, whether Seventh-day Adventists or otherwise, more like the Thessalonians, and less noble than the Bereans? Are we continuing along the Way towards a correct understanding of Truth and Real Life history as required by the Holy Scriptures and by Ellen White's Desire of Ages as quoted elsewhere by you? Or, are we burying our heads in the sand unwilling to perceive the scary and ugly truth of our own ignorance and errors that is staring us in our face?

- It certainly does follow, from your observation, that the 2,300 year prophecy as commonly (but cf. those that I am being blessed to share with you all!) presented - as based upon the key years 457BC, 27AD, 31AD, 34AD, and 1844AD - does not hold up to closer scrutiny, given - or provided - that Abib 15 in the year of crucifixion did fall on a regular non-lunar Seventh Day of the week. The only way for 31AD to be the year of crucifixion, given the testimony of the Gospel writers, is - as you say - for the weekly Sabbaths to be lunar based. Or so it seems... And yes, Ellen White is supporting said 457-27-31-34-1844 application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy... {DA 233.1-3.} Or so it seems, and yet she also has this to say re the 1843 chart upon which said 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy is the central theme:

- So indeed, you are quite correct in stating that there is an Adventist Sabbath Paradox! Congratulations!



* * * * * * *


On the other hand, the GC Committee, claimed that: "6. Friday, April 27,, 31 A.D., Julian time, has been demonstrated to be the only date during the public ministry of Christ which satisfies (a) the Bible requirement for a Friday-passover crucifixion and (b) the definite demands of astronomy for the corresponding coincident positions of sun, moon, and earth..." (cf. the concluding page, "52," of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF)

- Obviously April 27, 31 AD was a Friday. So far the Committee was correct. So where did they go wrong? Or did they? Let's see...

- The astronomical full moon occurred on April 25, 31 AD at 19:59 + 02:21 = 22:20 Jerusalem solar time (late Wednesday night.) The first Scriptural/Jewish day following that full moon began on Thursday night, i.e. on the 6th Day of the week. Per the Committee's report the "Pashal moon" was, and is, none other than the day following the astronomical full moon (cf. #1. full report on p. "37," last paragraph, through p. "42" of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF #2. p."33," l.9 of the same link, #3. top line on p. 5 of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/BriefReviewNewViewsRegardingMilleriteChronology.pd f, and #4. lines 6 and 7 from the bottom of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/Jewish%20Feast%20Cycle%20(1843%20and%201844).PDF .)

- Seems to me the Committee's report re the varying lengths of translation periods of the moon is sound so far as the years 28-33 AD are concerned, doesn't it?! After all, their calculations of the paschal full moons for those years were made for them by a representative of the U.S. Naval Observatory, or isn't that true? [Cf. Research Committee Final Report, Part V, p. 38A, bottom of the page!] Accordingly, it seems as though we are dealing with a Friday, Abib 14, 31 AD crucifixion after all - and to the exclusion of all the other years from 28AD-33AD, aren't we? And it seems as though at least I (I cannot know about you, can I?) have not taken those varible translation periods into account in my reckoning of the dates...

- But, we are not finished at that point! Many problems remain, that are not solved by 31AD, nor by any of the years 28AD through 33AD! So what are we to do with all of that . . . ? So, please stay with me through the end of this post...




2.

Second, let me point out that there is more to the story than that! Our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers did an excellent job in doing as the Bereans did. They insisted adamantly that we are never to formulate a creed other than such as is perhaps most accurately and most concisely formulated in John 17:17:

I am convinced that none among our beloved Seventh-day Adventist pioneers would have stood for that which is being presented in the form of a creed and under the title Seventh-day Adventists Believe. Yet, their lives were short and they were not able to carry their studies unto perfection. For instance, John E. Andrews died at a tender age of only 54... Would they have lived longer, I have no doubt but that they would have carried their studies onwards to further hights. It is for us, each of us, you and me, to carry forwards those studies that they began!

You have listed in your post some "criteria that must be satisfied to establish a viable date for the crucifixion," haven't you? But isn't it true that a number of those "criteria..." are based upon an assumption that Jesus must necessarily be represented by no other sacrifice than that which was given on the eve between Abib 14 and Abib 15? Who is to say that he isn't much better represented by the sacrifice given on the Sabbath morning [sic] when - as in those days - the Wave Shief sacrifice was being observed?

Allow me to question the viability of those "criteria..." below that I have high-lighted in red font:

Besides, aren't those criteria in parts self-contradictory? For instance, you are listing both the 6th and the 7th Days of the week as criteria for the crucifixion day. Isn't that impossible? Likewise you've listed both the "the 14th day of that month" and "The beginning of the feast of unleavened bread," i.e. the 15th day of the month, haven't you?

Why do you associate Lev:9[-12] with the resurrection and the opening of the tomb (Mark 16:9?) Isn't that association based merely upon the traditional and erroneous belief that those events occurred at dawn of a Sunday morning and not at the sunset beginning the Third Day [of the week] as recorded elsewhere in some 16 NT passages?

What exactly do you mean by your "criteria... On a night of a full moon.Coinciding with a Passover" and how is that "criteria" being based upon "Lev 23:5?" Are you talking about the astronomical full moon as referenced in NASA's Phases of the Moon tables, or are you making a similar claim as is made by the GC Committee, that is, that the passover, Nisan 14, must follow the astronomical full moon day?: "Bible... commanded that the 14th of Nisan should follow the day of full moon in Jerusalem" (cf. the following:

#1. full report on p. "37," last paragraph, through p. "42" of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/RC%20Report%20Part%20V.PDF

#2. p."33," l.9 of the same link,

#3. top line on p. 5 of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/BriefReviewNewViewsRegardingMilleriteChronology.pd f, and

#4. lines 6 and 7 from the bottom of 4angelspublications.com/pdf/Jewish%20Feast%20Cycle%20(1843%20and%201844).PDF.)



* * * * * * *



The proof - and the Present Truth - in support of your "Adventist Sabbath Paradox"


Well, without getting further into those assumptions which we have inherited largely by means of Roman Catholic Church traditions etc., allow me to proceed towards the heart of the issue dealt with in that Research Committee Final Report, Part V:

Is there an easy way for us to double check, against real time reality, "the new and full moon dates [that] were computed from Shram's Tables by Glenn Draper, Associate Astronomer at the U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington D.C. [for] (c) General Conference Corporation of Seventh-day Adventists?"

Indeed there is! For the last 10 years plus the Karaites have been carefully observing and recording for us the actual new moon crescents as observed from the horizon of Israel. Cf. the table at bottom of the page: groups.yahoo.com/group/karaite_korner_news/

And it's easy to apply the same type of computations used for the Research Committee by the U.S. Naval Observatory upon this same recent 10 year period, for, and please correct me if I am wrong!, all one has to do is to reckon the astronomical full moon day (from the Jerusalem horizon) as the 13th of any Jewish month and to then compute the predicted New Moon crescent as the beginning of the 1st day of the same Jewish month. In fact, while working on this very post for the purpose of sorting these things out in my own mind, I have done exactly that... You are invited to scrutinize my work by reviewing my Excel sheet at this link: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/GraceAmadonCollection/ResearchCommitteeFinalReport/31adCrucifixionAndLongTranslationPeriodsVs10YearsObservations.xls or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/GraceAmadonCollection/ResearchCommitteeFinalReport/31adCrucifixionAndLongTranslationPeriodsVs10YearsObservations.xls

What is the result of that study of mine? Well, it is clear as crystal, isn't it?!!! Look at the rightmost column, highlighted in red color, and you'll notice that the real time Karaite observations for these last 10 years preceeded(!) the predicted first possible visibility of the New Moon as computed by the U.S. Naval Observatory representative for the Research Committee by 1-3, an average of 1.4, days! That's a no no, indeed! Or, isn't it? In contrast the computations I've been using - and which I believe you have been using similarly - are exactly as expected, with less than one third (0.3) of the actual observations falling a day after, not ever before, the predicted first possible observation of the New Moon crescent.

Thus, the U.S. Naval Observatory's computations do not hold up to reality, or at least not to the reality observed in real time by the Karaites. It is, however, not impossible that they may hold up to the reality of the Rabbi's computations for the Jewish calendar, I don't know... Regardless, it is obvious to me that the faults of the Reasearch Committee are due to their baseless reliance upon authorities of men and the computations of such, and not upon the first hand observations of that which they should have been really looking for, that is, observations strictly in line with that which was laid down for us by God and through Moses in the Scriptures. And yet again, very likely, the Research Committee had no such real time observations available to them and so they were stranded with the best evidence available to them at the time... That is, "the present truth" of what was currently available at that time and place for those people, those "Bereans." And, of course that goes for the Millerites in the 1840ies too, doesn't it?!



* * * * * * *


3.

Third and last, you should take careful notice of this fact of life: The Friday crucifixion, that is, the crucifixion upon the Sixth Jewish Day of the week, called for by the Research Committee in Part V of their Final Report, is a regular non-lunar based day of the week!

No doubt you can confirm this fact for yourself by looking carefully at the highlighted boxed in words on the center of page 38A of said Part V, that is, these words: "CRUCIFIXION FRIDAY, APRIL 27, 31 A.D." and the adjoining pages?

I am perceiving zero evidence in their Final Report that the Research Committee were perceiving the Karaites - or the Millerites - as using a lunar based week or a lunar based Sabbath.

So, if you still believe that they are, you have still to show me any evidence to that effect! Please do - if you have it!




Peace to all of us and to each our families and homes,

Tree of Life (c)

Tree of Life ©

So, my dear Trouble Shooter,


To sum up and recap just a little of what I perceive most essential in all of this... (cf. my last post above as also partly quoted below!)

It is certainly true that from time to time - providing we are willing to admit it to ourselves and/or to others - we do wake up to a realization that in the past and up until the present time we have been in error, and we have been blind and ignorant, regarding this or that particular. Sometimes these confusions and errors of ours may be of great significance and importance, otherwise less so.

Yes, the SDA General Conference Research Committee of 1938/39 were in error re the validity of a 31 A.D. Friday, Aviv 14, crucifixion. And yes, the Millerites must accordingly have also been in error re their association of a 31 A.D. crucifixion and the 2,300 evenings and mornings, albeit their error seems to have been different from that which are attributed to them by the 1938/39 committee. Accordingly there certainly is an Adventist Sabbath Paradox re those particulars as connected one with the other - which cannot be! Which paradox naturally would then apply equally to any adherent of such paradoxical teachings, that is, in the face of such errors being presently replaced by new and better light, by higher truths and higher vistas...

On the other hand, and much more importantly: Is there a reality to our claims of being followers of Christ? Or are we standing still, refusing to move onwards, when the Holy Spirit is calling our attention to errors in our prior thinking? Is there a reality to our claims of being Bible based Christians, whether Seventh-day Adventists or any others, such that when being faced with errors in detail re our prior faith and points of beliefs, we do like the Bereans did? Are we trusting the validity and truth of the Holy Scriptures, such that when being faced with a realization that a prior stand of ours was baseless or all too superficially based, we are willing to dive deeper into the origins of the Scriptures - even unto the very bottom of things, unto the ultimate beginnings, to the points that are solidly tied to our Creator, the one Rock of Ages, our Savior, the One true Light? Are we willing to do as Yehoshua did? Are we willing to have each our heads rubbed in with the anointing oil that alone can make any of us more like Christ, more like the pattern into which our Creator, the Potter above all, would have us be?


Or...

Could it be that the real Christian Paradox is that while professing to be "followers of Christ" we are not willing to accept His many and insistent invitations to follow Him even one little step, even one little line, and even one little precept in the direction of more truth and a healthier, happier, and more godly life style?

Are we, I and you, willing to heed the "strong voice..." of the "angel [that] come down from heaven, having great power... saying, Come out of her [the States and/or belief systems (churches and creeds) voted into existence by you or I,] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues?" (Revelation 18:1-5.)

Are we willing to be followers of Him who is identifying Himself in Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of [whichever State we claim we live in,] out of the house of bondage?"


Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)




PS. Or is it not true that the past errors in detail re the prior application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings are presently being replaced by a richer, more comprehensive and more meaningful light to us here today who are having so many of our families destroyed and shredded to pieces by powers supplied without much discretion, senselessly, and for all our detriment, by each our State and by its representatives - not excluding anyone identifying himself or herself by means of a State issued Drivers License or ID Card?

Or what about all of that which you may each study into at this link?: adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm or else treeoflife.freehostingcloud/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm

[And please don't forget: Do remove each and every space out of the URLs I'm providing - or they won't work...]

Tree of Life ©

For the sake of clarity: I am actually quoting Greg in my above use of the term 'a lunar driven Sabbath.' I am using said term in reference to Troubleshooter's contension re weeks and Sabbaths being originally and continually controlled and reckoned based upon the beginnings of lunar months:










Reviewing, digging deeper, growing onwards along the Way…

- While adding, modifying, correcting as needed unto my own prior post…






Dear Trouble Shooter,


There is certainly no question but that the 1939 SDA GC Research Committee Final Report is claiming none other day for the day of crucifixion than Friday, April 27, 31 A.D., is there?!

The Committee is claiming that Friday, April 27, 31 A.D., Julian calendar, is the Sixth Day of the week, Nisan 14, and Passover Day of the Jewish calendar, are they not?! Or isn’t that quite clear from their statements in Research Committee Final Report, Part V:

I have found no evidence anywhere that the Committee is claiming either for themselves, or for the Millerites in the 1840ies, that "Tue/Wed, April 24/25, 31 A.D., Julian calendar," is Day Six of the week, Nisan 14, Passover Day, and/or the day of Crucifixion.

Trouble Shooter, you do agree with this last statement of mine, do you not? But if you do, you must agree also that the Committee is making no claim re a lunar based week or a lunar based Sabbath for the crucifixion, or isn’t that true?

Now, I totally agree with you that the Committee’s claim re Friday, April 27, 31 A.D. cannot be correct, that is, re it being Nisan 14 per the Karaite calendar, per the Scriptural calendar as given through Moses, or even by the authors of the New Testament.

However, if you study carefully the RC Final Report, Part V, you’ll soon realize that a very large portion of it is committed to discussions re the calendar reckoning in use the by the Jewish authorities of the first century and of the time of Christ, while little or no reference is given to Karaites or to a Karaite calendar, or isn’t that so?

If you think carefully about this, suppose the calendar reckoning of the Rabbis and of the Jewish authorities at the time were off from God’s true calendar, Which calendar would Jesus and the authors of the Scriptures have been referencing - and which calendar would God be using for fulfilling His own prophecies? The Jewish authorities could have been, and most likely were, off by a day or two plus, and even re the numbering of the month, that is, a whole month off, could they not? Do we have any Bible evidence or proof for such erroneous time reckoning?

As a matter of fact I find that we do! Think about it! Didn’t Jesus and his disciples share their Passover meal (Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12; and Luke 22:8,) the Last Supper, on a day prior to the day called elsewhere ‘preparation of the passover’ (John 19:14) when the high priests and the servants of the high priests who led Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment ate their Passover (John 18:28?!) Thus, there is indeed evidence of two different calendars being used, one being in the nature of the Karaites’ calendar, that is, the one which Jesus used, and the other being in the nature of the Jewish hierarchy – a day or so later. Cf. also Jesus' own words:

It seems clear to me that the SDA GC Research Committee’s chief error is found in the assumption that the Jewish calendar reckoning, that is being discussed at length in Part V of the RC Final Report, is valid, and also that such a calendar of men would or could ever have been typified by the Biblical types and antitypes.

As a matter of fact - that you may or may not have noticed already? - said Jewish calendar of the Rabbis, as referenced by the 1938/1939 SDA GC Research Committee, was/is based, not upon the first visible New Moon crescent, but upon the full moon, and upon a retro-grade experience based assessment of when that full moon will be, as based upon the typical look of the young moon 13 days prior to the astronomical full moon...

So there you have it: The 1939 Research Committee was in error re 31AD and therefore, as you say, also re the correct application of the 2,300 evenings and mornings, but they were nowhere giving evidence of using, or even considering, a lunar based week or a lunar based Sabbath. So far as I’ve seen, no one has provided a valid basis for your accusation brought against the SDA GC Research Committee: “...but it was decided not to trouble the church with it [a lunar driven week and Sabbath:]”


Quite to the contrary, you yourself have shown me that your basis for that accusation against them is referencing, not "a lunar determined Sabbath" as you claim, but something quite of a different nature, i.e. "the wandering lunar day line:"

To sum up thus far, the 1938/39 SDA Research Committee, was in error re the 31AD date and in using that date in support for the still widely proclaimed application of Daniel’s 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy beginning at 457BC and ending 1844AD, yet they stand scot-free from the accusation being brought against them re hiding or knowing anything about a lunar determined week or Sabbath - if ever such one did exist! So far as the RC Committee is concerned, there is nothing supporting your contentions as brought forth in your first post at the top of this thread and as highlighted by me in red font quoting said post of yours:


Furthermore, although October 22, 1844 AD is an important day in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist history, it is an error to claim, as you do in your above quoted post, that “...it is the basis of the prophetic scheme that establishes their October 22 1844 origin.”

The origin of the Seventh-day Adventist movement is based upon the guidance and leadership of “him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters” (Revelation 14:7,) upon the prayer of Jesus found in John 17, and, more particularly, upon such as are being characterized by John 17:17, that is, along their Way out of the present State of Confusion, Babylon, Egypt, "house of bondage," etc.. It should go without saying - but it doesn't! - that the point of origin of that Advent, or any other similar, movement has its beginning deeply within the realm and kingdom of error, and that each and every step out of such errors diminishes the State of confusion and the number of errors remaining, but it most certainly does not remove them all at once, does it?!!!

Thus the appropriateness of the use of the term 'the Present Truth...'

Most everything else is peripheral - albeit ever so important if there is to remain a reality to such a movement with Christ being indeed a movement… Once the movement stops, the erosion, the degradation, and the accumulation of errors once again takes the upper hand until in the end there remains nothing but death and nothingness.

Now, isn't that a fact that is perfectly obvious and easy enough for any child to comprehend and to fathom?!!!



Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)


PS: It remains to be shown... Please cf. my post at:
It remains to be shown that neither is there any evidence brought forth, that I’ve seen thus far within this thread, in support of William Miller and his followers perceiving the Karaite calendar - which they were indeed using - as being a calendar with lunar driven weeks or Sabbaths – that is, other than touching the seven special Sabbaths within the three plus annual feasts ordained forever per Leviticus 23.

But I'll leave that for another loose end within this tread... Here [same as the last quote above:]

pythons

I'm fairly sure that the issue ( or paradox ) is Ellen's "God" confirmation of 31 A.D. being the year of the crucifixion, as well as;

A) Passover

B) Full Moon

C) Day of preparation

etc, etc, etc.

As for the actual year of 31 A.D. being BOTH the pillar and foundation of the SDA faith:

And,

They are stuck with the 31 A.D. date and as math has already confirmed it was impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath.

Tree of Life ©

A Mid-night Cry

from within Adamah Republic (c)

In the middle of the cold and dark portion of the year, that is, mid winter, and...
in the middle of the cold and dark portion of the moon, that is, astronomical new moon, and...
for someone else, like Trouble Shooter, near the mid Pacific Ocean Date line divider where the Seventh-day Sabbath is presently at its coldest and darkest, that is, midnight...

The Sixth Day 5930± 09 30 2030 [Friday December 18, 2009 after the beginning of the reign of Caesar Tiberius]







Dear Pythons,


Thank you for your post and for your interest as focused upon beginnings of importance in each our lives! In your post you are making a few subtle errors that are all too commonly made also by many within and without the SDA denomination. Perhaps said errors could be viewed alternatively as devious statements of yours, I don't know? I'll take this opportunity to accept those errors of yours - and theirs - as a challenge and as an opportunity to point out the obvious, such that one and all among us will have yet another opportunity to accept such rays of light as the Lord of Hosts may seem fit to send each our way...

"May the Lord, our Messiah, our Light upon the Way, be with each One among us as we keep doing as the Bereans did... That is my prayer, O Lord of Hosts!"



Quoting your post which I will then proceed to further discuss below:




1.

First an easy one. One that no doubt you'll easily accept?: Your first reference "White, GC 408" should be corrected to "White, GC 409."



2.

Second, your words "Ellen's "God" confirmation of..." could be read in a number of ways and I for one cannot know your intention in using those words of yours, can I? If you or someone else... - and I believe a number of zealous professors of the Seventh-day Adventist profession may well be perceiving the writing of Ellen White thusly... If you or someone else choose to perceive Ellen's writings as words and letters written firsthand by God - or, using your words, as a " "God" confirmation of..." something - even where such words and letters are being read, misunderstood, and abused out of context, then you and anyone so doing is making a grave and serious mistake. Or isn't that obvious?

To me those words of yours may even appear devious, not straight and clear, and calculated to raise any number of reactions... all while being a distraction for a more focused approach.

Also, to me, it may feel a bit of a tedious thing to even comment upon suchlike use of words as yours. Yet, being as it is, that all too many even among the most zealous of Seventh-day Adventist professors may be thus characterized, I do indeed find it important to address even those words of yours:

In fact, it should be sufficient to point out the obvious truth that, we are all, each one among us, as tiny children and at different points of comprehension and of learning. When first born, tiny babies begin the path of learning by figuring out the meaning of each word they see and hear spoken round about them by their parents and others. Those words are by necessity taken out of context and the remainder of the sentences being used are rarely if ever correctly understood by such babies. Later upon their path of learning those babies begin understanding words in sets of two, then three, four... etc.. Some people never go beyond understanding relatively short sentences... while thusly being apt to misunderstand the greater context.

It behooves each of us to respect each others right to be like babies, "as little children..." (Matt 18:3,) and not to expect from others a comprehension beyond such as each of them may be able... lest we be condemned with such as are being described by Matthew 18:6... In this context I believe it is important that we each do our best in using words as simply, as clearly, and with as clear definitions as we may each be able to, and while yet allowing each other the freedom to utter words to the best of each our limited ability and even while not always doing so absolutely correctly - as judged perhaps by each our own standards... and whether by a certain authoritative dictionary or not...

In fact that's how I must perceive your use of the above quoted words also. So please forgive me if, per chance, you feel that my "wordy comments" (Troubleshooter's words) are somehow causing you pain!



3.

Thirdly, I seem unable to make any sense out of these particular words of yours. Perhaps you'd care to be a tad more explicit?:

Or, isn't it true that "Passover," "Full Moon," "Day of preparation," "etc, etc, etc." occur in each and every year, not just in "31 A.D.?" So what are you trying to say by those words of yours?



4.

Fourthly, the words you are quoting out of Ellen White's book the Great Controversy are very pertinent and to the point of the discussion within this thread. Yet, clearly and obviously they are taken out of context when considering some apparently small, but most important particulars of the most simple and basic English grammar:

You are saying that "As for the actual year of 31 A.D. being BOTH the pillar and foundation of the SDA faith..."

1) You seem to be assuming that "the SDA faith" - as perhaps officially declared in the form of a creed such as is found in the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe, or perhaps as expressed by anyone associating himself or herself with the term 'Seventh-day Adventist' - is one and the same thing as that which is being referenced by Ellen's somewhat different words "the advent faith..." (cf. near the beginning of page 409 in the Great Controversy.) That is a false assumption of yours, though I do admit that it is one easily made by any and all, and especially by such as are used to thinking along the lines as given them by each their own hierarchy of men.

2) Your word "being" is a word referencing present time. If you read carefully the chapter beginning on page 409 of The Great Controversy, while focusing upon the past tense consistently used by Ellen when describing the thoughts and beliefs associated with those of "the advent faith" in days past, you'll soon see that Ellen's focus is upon describing the history of what had been, and more particularly in the context of what the particular errors of such were... and still may be! Notice carefully that this is all about a movement out and away from being within a State of error and confusion re many a particular, some small, some grand, while moving ever closer towards something better, something closer to being correct, something of less confusion, something with more color and light than what has formerly been... For instance (highlighting past tense in red font: )

Again notice the explicit use of the past tense as highlighted in red font!

Notice also, especially as emphasized by my underlining certain words and by my use of bold font, within the last two of the above quoted paragraphs, the great and emphatic emphasis upon an ever ongoing movement under the exclusive leadership of God!



5.

Fifthly, re your last sentence within your post: "They are stuck with the 31 A.D. date and as math has already confirmed it was impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath."

Who are you referencing by your first word "They...?" Yes, I agree with you that anyone being yet unwilling to be willing to unlearn each their own false assumptions, whether based upon self or upon the false assumptions of others more learned, more highly esteemed, more popular etc... Yes, indeed, "They are stuck..."

Yet, to the extent that any one among us is willing to be willing to be part of the movement out of a State of error and confusion while under the exclusive leadership of God, there is no such thing as "being... stuck with the 31 A.D. date!"

It pays well for each of us, me and you certainly not excluded, to ask ourselves this question: "To what extent, and in re to what particulars, am I being stuck and unwilling to move under God's leadership towards higher ground?"



6.

Sixth, you are emphatically in error, as I have attempted to show you before, in stating "math has already confirmed it was impossible to have a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath!"

To reiterate, if you browse your way to adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.lan.io and then press the link in the left hand column to "NT & OT Biblical Chronology" and then go on from there, perhaps beginning with the link under item #5 to "the 18± astronomical events" and later, after reviewing that item #5, by continuing to item #1, you should be able to perceive the light in what I am attempting to show you re the certainty, not the impossibility, of "a Passover weekend that syncs with the Gospel record without a Lunar Sabbath!"



7.

A) If indeed you are serious about finding the truth re the harmony between the firsthand observations as recorded by contemporary writers and the events they were observing you should have no trouble in eventually finding that which you are searching for. That is, the truth as it really happened and in terms that make sense from your very own point of view!

B) If, on the other hand, your object is to question the serious pursuit of truth, and the serious research, of others without being willing to dive into the particulars and the basics as presented by such others, yes, then too you'll be finding what you are looking for. That is, apparent paradoxes that may or may not be paradoxes when viewed in a greater light. You are then likely to end up with the scoffers as described in 2 Peter 3:3, and with the state of mind had by Saul, the king of Israel during his latter years of reign.

The choice is yours, whomever you may be! And for as long as your mind is still alert enough to realize the difference between making one choice or another!




Peace, and happy oncoming Sabbath, to the family and home of each honest and true tiny tot of God,

Tree of Life (c)


PS. Pythons, a technical question, what is the color you are specifying for highlighting some passages within your posts?

Troubleshooter

I can see that you are rather disturbed by this 'Tree of Life'...
...you know there is no way to reconcile the paradox without giving up...
...Ellen's inerrancy or Miller/Snow date or the Sabbath reckoning or a 31 AD crucifixion.

The easiest thing to do is accept the facts and allow these issues to fall where they will.

Btw did you have a look at the other thread?
Even when Ellen's right, she's wrong.
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Written within Adamah Republic (c)

In the middle of the cold and dark portion of the year, that is, mid winter, and...
in the middle of the cold and dark portion of the moon, that is, New Moon eve, and...
in the middle of the cold and dark portion of the day, that is, approaching the midnight of

The Seventh Day 5930± 10 01 2026 [Friday December 18, 2009 after the beginning of the reign of Caesar Tiberius]

[Sorry about my erroneous entry "2030" in my last prior post. I stand corrected by replacing it above with 2026.]








Shabbat Shalom Trouble Shooter,


It is good to know that, provided that you are at all a Sabbath keeper, you and I are going to be keeping the same Sabbaths for the duration of this one and the next four Sabbaths, are we not? Or isn’t tonight both the eve of Sabbath, the regular weekly non-lunar driven one, and the eve of the New Moon by default? Thus, as you say, the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of this 10th lunar moon in the 2026th year after the beginning recorded in Luke 1:26-33 are indeed being Sabbaths by both reckonings, yours and mine, are they not?!

I am happy for you because whenever you recognize your having made an error you are willing to openly admit it. That is, you are willing to change your way of thinking once you realize you were not straight upon a certain point. I noticed that at the conclusion of our communications re the order of time re the years 1883 and 1939…

I am also happy for you because it is obvious that you are indeed moving ahead in the direction towards higher truths. I noticed that upon seeing your reference to The Star of Bethlehem, which brings my memories back to a waypoint in my past when a certain Ernest L. Martin, author of the book The Star of Bethlehem – The Star that Astonished the World (cf. askelm.com/books/book003.htm,) brought me a long ways closer to the truths re the true chronology of the New Testament and the First Century. Prior to learning a number of very valuable things re the events and timing of that time period I was not ready to accept or study another author, Ronald L. Conte Jr (cf. biblicalchronology.com/index.htm,) who later ended up bringing me yet another giant step in the right direction, and who remain to me yet another most important waypoint upon my way of learning important details pertaining to the nature and reality of the Kingdom of God in the here and now.

To answer you question directly, Yes, I did read that link of yours re Ellen White quite some time ago, which you would have known already had you cared enough to really carefully study and consider the values that I’ve been sharing with you in my prior posts, or wouldn’t you?:

Was I perhaps not specific enough in giving reference to that post of yours? If so, please forgive me? I too do make errors. Just like you do. I make errors all too often, yet I do my best to seek and correct my errors ASAP, and I really do appreciate anyone who is willing and able to show me my errors and my missed points and my areas of blindness. In fact that is a chief reason for me to enter deeply into the details of these claims of yours, some of which are valid, some of which are clearly based on nothing but errors and misunderstandings of yours and others.

In fact, I do find great joy in digging for such pearls and treasures of God buried as they usually are deep within and underneath the piles of thrash of the teachings of men. So, no, I am not “disturbed by this…” “The Adventist Sabbath Paradox” of yours. Quite to the contrary! I do find it very encouraging to see others, you, on route towards something better than that which they had previously learnt and which was in need of revision and cleansing! Also, as no doubt you too, I find value and meaning in being able to share with others some of the treasures and valuable lessons that I’ve been able to gather along my way of learning little by little and precept upon precept as per Isaiah 28:9-13.


But really Trouble Shooter, Who are you really addressing by these words of your post:

That is, where do I claim any such thing as "Ellen's inerrancy?" Or where am I making any claim in favor of "a 31 AD crucifixion?" Why are you asking me to give up one out of four things, two of which I am not now claiming, and which two I have not before been claiming? That doesn't make any sense to me at all!

Could it be that, indeed, you are addressing noone else primarily than your own mistaken beliefs as held sometime within your own past history? I have no way of knowing. Only you do. Could it be that, as is so commonly done in this world, you are failing to recognize your own self, whether past or present, while attributing your own false ideas and concepts upon another, whomever he or she or it may be? At any rate, whomever that figment of your imagination is, you seem to associate it with the word 'Adventist,' are you not? Well, just wandering... Perhaps you'll find it worth your while considering the thought?

Additionally, I've done my best to show you several of the errors upon which the erroneous 31 AD crucifixion reckoning was built - while also proving to you that in all of that work there is nothing suggesting, or even requiring, "a lunar driven Sabbath" such as you are mistakenly claiming!

But naturally you are free to hold on to any belief that you wish, be it in error or not. I must respect your rights of thinking and of doing with such as is all yours as you wish. Hopefully that'll generate within you a similar respect for such thoughts of mine as you are at present obviously either unwilling or unable to comprehend or else to study into in sufficient depth.




Shabbat Shalom my Brother,

Tree of Life ©

TMaekler

Hello,

since I am from Germany and we have very little information about most things in our language about 7th-day-Adventism, I would like to know more about the sources you all pull this discussion from:

a) Where can I find the information about the day-counting in the Karaite-Calendar and they starting a Month always with a NewMoon and then every 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th a Sabbath?

b) Where do I find the information that the Karaite-Calendar is the one which was used in the time of Abraham and in the time of Jesus? Can I find this in the Bible?

c) Where can I find the information that the Millerites based their Oct-22nd 1844 on the calculation of that calendar?

d) Where do I find the teaching that Adventism is based upon Oct-22nd 1844 and not generally the year 1844? Is there any written text which proofs that Adventism is dependant on Oct-22nd? As far as I know, the only thing that was predicted for the end of the 2300 Days was that this marks the beginning of the "Day of Judgement" - and it has little or no theological value for us to have the exact day.

e) Why does AD31 as the Year of the Crucifiction of Jesus Christ only fit when one uses the Karaite-Calendar? I've read some sources on this topic and none of them ever mentionend a Karaite-Calendar... .

f) As far as I know is the best evidence for a 7-day-weekly-cycle not the creation itself (but God certainly could have done it in a different timeset than six days and a resting day, so that might have happened on purpose), but the falling of the Manna - which fell 6 days and on the 6th day double portions and on the 7th day nothing. I havn't found anything there which would indicate that there that would indicate to a month based on a lunar cycle with one or two days "between" the weeks... .

Thanks for your help.
Best Regards...

JDP

This board is to close down today so there are few people posting here. the owners of this board have started a new forum here.....

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php


if you will post your questions there, you are more than likely to get replies. Hopefully this board will remain accessable for a reasonable length of time to allow some transferance of discussion topics.

__________________

Troubleshooter

Hi...if you catch this before it goes down...
...I have taken a copy of your post/questions...
...I plan to distill the best of research on this thread and represent it for comment on the new forum...
...I will attempt to answer your excellent questions at that time.

I look forward to interacting with you on the new forum.

Regards Troubleshooter

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Dear T Maekler,


Being myself a living and breathing Seventh-day Adventist created of flesh and blood by the Creator of the Universe, perhaps I may have the honor of answering, to some extent, some of your questions...

You will find my answers in red font within your quoted post below:










Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

Icyspark

Hi Greg Goodchild,

Great post! I find it odd that formers even attempt to argue the point that the Sabbath is determined by anything other than a simple, systematic seven day cycle. Thank you for taking the time to expose yet another false accusation.

God bless!

__________________
But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Troubleshooter

Oh Icy, Icy, Icy...
...you too have missed the point of the thread.

It was was William Miller that used a luni/solar calendar to establish 1844...
...and Samuel Snow who used it to set the terminus of the 2300 days on 22 October 1844.

The same calendar determines weekly sabbaths by a lunar reckoning...
...but SDA's have based their sabbath on a successive Gregorian calendar reckoning.

This has only academic interest for formers...
...the paradox is yours Icy...
...it's the origin of your religion that is based on one system...
...and your sabbath that is based on another.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Mr. Happy

Do you happen to have the Karaite web site that back this up?

Thanks
Mr. Happy