Kevin Morgan

Yes, rational argument ceased with that post. There is no need to add anything to it.

You stretch the story beyond realistic expectations to think they could have gotten and eaten the fruit without approaching the tree.

When you protest against logic, it is a hole of your own making.

__________________

DrPatti

So why did you?

I never said that.
Please reread the posts.
Must you stoop to misquotation in order to try and count coup on me?
That is just it, "pastor."
The Gospel is against logic!

Pastor, teach yourself!
Here are some words you need to spend some time pondering!

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

And yet you mock those who do just that.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal your joy!

Kevin Morgan

The Gospel isn't illogical. It is is beyond our human logic.

Upholding the Gospel is a good thing. Yet, when you play it against every other revelation of Scripture and claim that it requires us to quit thinking, you dig a hole of your own making.

__________________

DrPatti

It is (and I quote) "foolishness to those who are perishing."
Foolishness would mean it is illogical.
A false accusation.
What I have "playing" it against is the "revelation" of Ellen White.
SHE IS NOT SCRIPTURE, although I know you cannot wrap your mind around this factoid.
You lie yet again.
It is the revelation of the Gospel by the Holy Spirit that opens our minds and enables us to start thinking.

It is telling that you must stoop to false accusations to make your case.

A poor argument it is, pastor, that has to be built on half- and non-truths.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal your joy!

Kevin Morgan

No, "foolishness" means that it makes no sense to them because they have different motivations.

Ask yourself this: To whom is it "foolishness"? To all?

It only makes no sense to the ones perishing.

1Cor 1:17 (KJV) For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. {words: or, speech}
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

I have spoken the truth, though you may wish to dismiss it.

You dismiss God's truthful statement that the Sabbath IS His "holy day" by saying "Jesus is enough." You dismiss the obedience of faith and the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law IN us by faith.

This is wrong, just plain wrong.

__________________

DrPatti

Exactly!

Exactly!
Christ IS the "Wisdom of God"!
Any which way you try to turn it, pastor, it is (still) all about HIM!!

No.
You have not spoken the Gospel.
You have not spoken Jesus.

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal your joy!

Kevin Morgan

The truth is the truth--even if it is hard to bear. Of even the simplest Gospel presentation, "I am a sinner" is always a part. Jesus is the answer--the only answer--to the problem that this statement represents. But, if you do not recognize your sin, you ignore the first part of the Gospel.

You may want to make the Gospel illogical, but it is not. It is the wisdom and power of God. What power is there in the Gospel you proclaim? Does it merely secure you immunity for prosecution for your evil speaking and doing and drag you "kicking and screaming" into heaven?

__________________

DrPatti

You continue to promote your own agenda over the testimony of the Scriptures (which is evidently why you are so loath to quote them).

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Your "other gospel" is not a Gospel of a victorious Christ Who has conquered sin and death on our behalf and has seated us in heavenly places with Him. Your "other gospel" is the Galatian gospel of, "But what's in it for me?" Your telltale attitude of nonchalance, even antithesis, toward the all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ shouts that you continue to look for "more than just Jesus." Your continued promotion of your own "good works" and claims to keep holy a law that "even our forefathers could not bear" shows your enamorment with what is happening in you. You abrogate the law, lowering its holy standards so that you can boast about observing it, while, at the same time, you openly break the very law you hold above all others, failing to keep even a moment of any sabbath holy, let alone your blatant ignoring of its commands not to work on the sabbath (while you condemn all others for the very same thing).

And so you must pervert the Gospel and modify every statement of Scripture to suit your "It's all about me" theology--your wishful thinking that you are a commandment-keeper and it is this very (imagined) observance that presents you faultless before God.

How are you any different from the Jews? They failed utterly at doing the very things they upheld as making them different--chosen; especially blessed of God. They still claim they are specially blessed even as they still fail at keeping the very indicator of their chosenness--the torah. How are you different? Romans 2 describes your attitude exactly. You brag about the law and about your relationship to God all the while continuing to break the very thing that you claim makes you special to Him.

And Jesus is STILL THE TRUTH!

How can you call that "hard to bear"??

You are so uncomfortable to my affirmations of the all-sufficiency of Christ that you have to try and bury them under tons of rhetoric, misuses of Scripture, and heaps of doubt. Doubt is what you are mongering, pastor. I say Jesus is enough, and you come up with some whiny non-response that attempts to nullify this great surpassing Truth. I simply do not understand how you can conscionably call yourself Christ's minister when you try and dilute or negate any statement of the all-sufficiency of His saving act for us.

It is not just a part! It is the foundation! It is the "new birth"!
Christ came to save only sinners. If one is not a sinner, one does not need a Savior!

Which is exactly what is wrong with your "gospel." By promoting yourself as a "law-keeper" you fail to see how truly sinful you are. You believe you are pleasing God with your "law-keeping" and so you feel little need of redemption. And thus Jesus' work of salvation for you is not satisfying, and you seek "more than just Jesus."

Once again, the "big but."
If only you could stop at Jesus is the answer and put a large period there, if not an exclamation point.

When one has the Answer, there is no need for a "but" to follow. The "but" shows that the Answer is not good enough for you.

Who does not recognize their sin?
I will gladly stand up and be the first to confess my sinfulness, my complete depravity before God! Remember my thread on "SA," in which I was trashed by the SDAs and other lawmongers for confessing my sinfulness?

Ironically, it is those who claim they "keep" the law who do not recognize that all of their righteousnesses, all of their "law-keeping," all of their very best works are menstrual rags before God. Nasty, corrupt refuse.

Actually it is your argument here that is illogical. You do not proclaim your sinnerhood but your "goodness." Your "law-keeping." (And, as usual, it is totally devoid of Scripture.)

I quoted you that already. But in case you missed it:

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

You see how you belittle forgiveness and being credited with the Rightoeusness of God? That is like saying, "Did you merely win the lottery of $500 billion?" It shows how you underesteem and devalue God's Gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ.

If you understood the depths of your sinfulness, you would not address forgiveness as "mere." Remember the parable of the ungrateful servant? He had no concept of how much he had been forgiven.

That is fine with me!
Why is it a problem to leave our eternal destiny in God's hands?
Is He not capable?
Is He not trustworthy?
Why would you want to take control of something so vital instead of leaving it in the hands of the Omnipotent and Omniscient One?
Are you unwilling to be dragged into eternal paradise--the very Presence of God Himself--kicking and screaming if necessary?
(That, again, is like winning the lottery and insisting that no one could force you to take it! It is completely illogical.)

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal your joy!

Kevin Morgan

Willy, you judge the theological accuracy of these matters by your own opinion and whoever happens to agree with you. Yet we have demonstrated from Scripture time and again that the Sabbath is tied immediately to the week of creation, that Exodus 20:11 indicates that the "seventh day" is the "sabbath" day. That is the same thing the Aramaic (Syriac) of Hebrews 4:4 tells us as well:

"According to what He said about the Sabbath, 'God rested on the day seventh from His works all of them.'" (Dave Bauscher's interlinear translation; the Syriac translation was the oldest translation of the Greek Scriptures, and some say that the Greek is the translation).

You simply choose to disallow this evidence, for whatever your reason, and set the commencement of the Sabbath at some future date.

What is your view these days? Do you think it was inaugurated on Sinai? Or was it inaugurated back at the miracle of the manna? (Or perhaps you have creatively developed a new "big bang" to describe its origin.)

What is your evidence that the Sabbath WASN'T sanctified for man at the Creation?

Is it because there is no specific mention of a commandment to observe it before Exodus 20 (actually before Exodus 16)? If that is your reasoning, then the snafu that you run into is that there is no command against killing, stealing, or committing adultery, and yet God holds people accountable for these very things. The patriarchs knew better--even without a commandment restraining their behavior.

It would seem that you and other former SDAs think that what makes the Sabbath holy is God's commandment to "keep it holy," but that really makes no sense. It has to be holy before the issuance of the command; otherwise you can't "keep" it holy. You'd be "making" it holy. No, it isn't the commandment to "remember" it that makes it holy; and it isn't anyone's observance of it that makes it holy--whether Jew or Gentile. It was God's command in Gen. 2 that sanctified it after His rest that made it holy. When we get to Exodus 16 and 20, it's holiness is simply taken for granted.

Thus, it is holy whether you want to figure an ingenious way around it or not. It is holy whether I keep it carefully or not.

Is it holy because I say it is holy? No. Is it holy because God commanded Jews or non-Jews to keep from profaning it? No. It is holy because God said it is holy. End of discussion.

__________________

DrPatti

We may have struck on the problem here. YOU are not "the Judge."

Oh, my!
You got 3 fingers pointing back at yourself on that one, pastor.

That is just it.
You have not "demonstrated" it from Scripture.
You have added to the Scripture.

It is also tied to manna and to the Exodus.

That is common knowledge. This was initiated in Exodus 16.

Ex 16:21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as he needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers [b] for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.' "

24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."

It is editorial. The word "sabbath" does not occur in Hebrews 4.

Only because we do not presume to add to the Scriptures what is not there.
Nope.

Well, let me see. Since this is the first reference to the sabbath and the first sabbath command for mankind and the first documentation of humans resting on the seventh day of the week, what should we "assume"? (I know! I know! We shoud assume that the sabbath had always been in existence since creation, right?)

Your theology derpends upon proving a negative.
What is your evidence that people DIDN'T worship in the first day of the week, the day after the seventh, from the beginning?

Still arguing from silence. Proving something by the omission of something else. Very shaky academics, pastor. But it is, after all, all you have to go on.

That has to be the weakest argument I have ever heard, and one that undermines God's commands. As if God's commands cannot take effect the moment they are spoken, and have to have a historical basis. How you undermine God's authority! All for the sake of your pathetic attempts to wrest from the Scriptures that which is not there. Despite your most zealous efforts, you simply cannot place a sabbath command for mankind nor a weeklhy sabbath before Exodus 16.

So God's declaring the seventh day holy unto Him in Exodus 16 was not sufficient? (I am beyond astounded at how you attempt to set up ground rules for what God can and cannot do.)

A ridiculous argument, pastor, based upon your logic and nothing else. I think you realize that.

Please show us this "command" in Genesis 2.

That is completely denied by the story itself. If the COI were already observing the sabbath, they would not have had to have been told not to go out and gather manna on the sabbath. Clearly this was a new concept for them, as many broke the sabbath initially, and earned Moses' and God's anger.

Is it holy because I say it is holy? No. Is it holy because God commanded Jews or non-Jews to keep from profaning it? No. It is holy because God said it is holy. End of discussion.[/QUOTE]

Are not all the sabbaths "holy"?

__________________
"But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."

Don't let anybody steal your joy!

willy

As usual you unwittingly follow your prophet who was a theological nit wit, claiming a need as she does for rest and communion in the garden is a direct accusation against God.

She implies that Adam was not perfect and that the connection between Adam and God was weak and in need of man made effort.

Because you think this theological mis-mash is from God I'm sure you don't see it as an accusation against God, in that His refusal to create man in such a way that he did not need to rest, or would mindlessly wander into sin by accident in the absence of a weekly reminder.

Such concepts are in violation of the simplest of principles, if Ellen had read her own ideas on the nature of sin she would remember that Satan fell while in the direct presence of the creator, she apparently was so hell bent on pushing sabbath that she must have blocked out the idea that one day in seven does not quite match the eternal glory of God upon the covering cherub 24/7

You most likely don't even see the works based theology as it permeates virtually all of your doctrines and religious stories.

__________________
Virtually all heresy's are stopped by a knowledge of who Christ is.
Christ as fully human does not allow for his humanity controlling his divinity.

Kevin Morgan

Rather than avoiding my question and wandering about the subject, could you not simply reply to what I have asked?

More importantly: Faith that works by love is not salvation by works.

__________________

Mr. Happy

Kevin,
Even more importantly:
The "Works of the Spirit" through "Christians of Faith" [already Saved] is "Loving One Another".

Troubleshooter

Your first assumption is that Seventh-day Adventism is 'the truth'.
You then collect evidence to support that assumption.

My first assumption is that the Lord who became Jesus and Christ is 'the truth'...
...and that all scripture is about Him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus said, "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them (ie the scriptures) you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." John 5:40

You have accepted an anachronistic cult as the foundation of your 'truth'...
...in contradiction of the plain words of scripture...
"...no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:11

Come oh Adventist devotee and preach Jesus to me if you really know Him.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

I am sorry for having given you apparent cause for misreading me












Dear TroubleShooter,


First, I agree that that which you are apparently reading into my post is “anathema.” In fact, I couldn’t agree with you more! And I for one certainly do find it most unfortunate that such anathema attitudes are all to common among such as are calling them selves by names such as Christian, Seventh-day Adventists, or most any other name...

I am sorry for not being able to make myself clear to the point of making it impossible for you to misunderstand my words as I am intending them.

Apparently you are reading my words to the effect that I stand up for some officially stated SDA Church position and as someone officially representing such a church and such a position. I don’t! I represent no one but myself and my own position. I don’t know of any Seventh-day Adventist who would choose me to represent them. Quite the contrary... And that’s the way I like it.

Nevertheless, having grown up in a Seventh-day Adventist family I have certainly found and retained many a treasure of truth from the Holy Scriptures. Among them certainly those which you are pointing out by your quoted passages and more. On the other hand, there are a number of things being accepted as an official “statement of belief” by the hierarchy associated with the State registered Seventh-day Adventist Church that I find contrary to a straight “thus says the Lord” and contrary to Scriptural teaching and which I do my best to make clear that I do not stand for.

So please, do not read anything between the lines of my own words and my own writing. Notice these words that I inserted into my very first sentence in order to clarify what I mean by the term ‘Seventh-day Adventist church:’ “– composed as it is of each one of its members and that which they each have thus far come to believe -.” Notice my emphasis upon the word ‘each!’ In addition, as I perceive it, the living church, whether the Seventh-day Adventist church or any other church, is comprised of little or nothing more than all that which result from its individual members. It certainly is not, so far as I am concerned, any stated position of any elected “leadership,” whether in the form of a group of administrators or in the form of something voted into existence by any number of its members. Yet, I am well aware that very many, both within and without the people calling themselves Seventh-day Adventists, would have it quite the opposite to that which I just said.

Yet, as you can see from the post of mine which you are responding to, I am indeed perceiving among the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers, a very healthy pursuit of ever more, and more accurate, truth. I can and do identify with that pursuit. I do not identify with any desire or attempt to defend any “truth,” “doctrine,” or “creed” that is tending to hide or shield any inherent error from further light. If you ever read The Autobiography of Joseph Bates you’ll see a shining example of what I am talking about.

The reason I am pursuing the subject matter of this particular thread and the subject of the ‘Lunar Sabbath’ argument is that I am interested in learning for myself any treasures of truth that I have not heretofore discovered. If I were to find that the Lunar Sabbath is the correct Scriptural Sabbath I am certainly prepared to change accordingly. Unfortunately for some perhaps, thus far it seems that the more I am pursuing the purported evidence for a so called 'Lunar Sabbath,' as referenced within this and other threads within this forum, I am seeing more and more evidence to the contrary.

In my learning process and in my pursuit of treasures of truths, I make the assumption that most - or at least some - of the other members of forums such as this one are in a similar pursuit of truth as I am. In consequence thereof I am happy to share of such other gems of truth as I have found valuable in my prior studies. My hope is that we shall all continually grow into ever higher and more accurate specific truths – all of which are one with the God of Truth, our Creator and Savior.


Shabbat Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

solascriptura!

So, for all we know...Sabbatarians have been actually keeping another day Holy for the last who knows how long?

Troubleshooter

Certainly, to be consistent with their origins SDA's Sabbitarians at least should observe a weekly Sabbath determined by the lunar cycle...
...or admit that their foundation is flawed.

It certainly makes their Rome/Sabbath/Sunday debate look rather sick.

I am reminded of Paul's comments...

Galatians 4:10-11 "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

The Gospel should be our only foundation...
...SDAism is a house built on sand. (Matt 7:26)

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Dear Sola Scriptura!,


Considering your Forum name it would seem to me that you are likely to value the importance of always giving preference to the original Holy Scriptures over and above any tradition, and over and above anything else that you may be hearing. Or is that not so?

That having been said, I'd like to ask you what you have found to be the strongest evidence in favor of Lunar Sabbath observance?

What do you perceive as the strongest evidence in favor of the Seventh-day Sabbath originally having been a day other than that which is currently being observed as the Seventh-day Sabbath by Seventh-day Adventists?

I've been studying the proposed foundations of this "Lunar Sabbath observance" as referenced within this forum for some time now and so far I have found nothing of substance to support it... On the contrary, it seems to me that we are dealing here with plain misunderstandings and assumptions without solid support, but I am still studying, and, as usual, if nothing else, I find along the way other treasures for me to keep and value...


Peace over each our families and homes as we keep closely to the principle of Sola Scriptura,

Tree of Life (c)

Troubleshooter

Information is like a 'bead' on a line that can adjust its position from left to right as knowledge is gained.

When a person becomes too certain of their information...
...their 'bead' drop of the end of the line to left or right and becomes fixed there.

When this happens all further knowledge gained only serves to strengthen that position...
...that is, knowledge no longer serves to modify...
...only to solidify.

That's how I see your purpose here ToL...
...any knowledge you gain only serves to solidify you entrenched positions.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Sophia7

Interesting observation. I also find it interesting that even the Karaites themselves deny that the Day of Atonement in 1844 was observed by Karaites in October rather than September.

__________________
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Troubleshooter

What I find ironic is that...
...the dating of the death of Christ should be the death of 1844.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

solascriptura!

Theres a goldmine of truth in that little statement you just made.

Greg Goodchild

The Paradox...

Seventh-day Adventists lay claim to an origin calculated using the Karaite calendar…

Greg - What they used the Karite calendar for was to establish the date of the Day of Atonement. In 1844 they did not even believe in the weekly Sabbath.


…whose weekly Sabbath’s are determined month by month…

Greg - The weekly Sabbath was not determined by the moon, the sun, or the earth. The weekly Sabbath is identified by the Creator - every 7th day. Jesus, as the Creator, knew the count of Sabbath and He observed the 7th day Sabbath all of His time on earth. He had not changed the Sabbath at His death and therefore it was confirmed in the New Covenant and observed by His disciples even after His death. Luke 23:56

…but maintain a weekly Sabbath determined by the successive Julian/Gregorian calendar.

Greg - The SDAs maintain the weekly Sabbath because you can count the weekly Sabbath since the time of Jesus. The Jews know what day Sabbath is on, the Muslims know what day the 7th day is, and the Catholics and Protestants know what day the 1st day of the week is. Everybody knows except the formers.

Troubleshooter

The Paradox...
The Millerites used the Karaite calendar to establish...
...the Day of Atonement in 1943/1844...
...the year of the crucifixion...
...and other stuff I may present later...
...but the SDA's later chose not to apply the lunar Sabbath because it was inconvenient.


It was determined by the moon in the Karaite calendar system.


You can definitely count the weekly Sabbath's since the time of Christ...
...but you will never establish a 31 AD date for the crucifixion that way.

Go count them Greg...
...you will find that Passover in 31 AD did not fall on a Sabbath/Saturday...
...when scripture (and Ellen) clearly describe that it did...
...the only way you can reconcile this is to use the Karaite calendar.

Your church recognises the problem Greg...
...the General Conference even conducted a Research Committee to investigate it...
...I can't help it if you are ignorant of your own church history.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

Looks like I will continue to stay ignorant of perceived problems. Dates for Passover, dates for Day of Atonement are helped by the Kariaite calendar. But I don't use the new moons to calcualte the weekly Sabbath. Nowhere in Scripture is Sabbath dictated by the new moon. I will continue to keep Sabbath the Biblical way, every 7th day - Saturday.

Victor

How are you doing with those burnt offerings?

__________________
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly? - Lord Byron

Troubleshooter

That's the paradox exactly...

1844 depends on Jesus being crucified in 31 AD...
...the 31 AD date is only possible using a Lunar Sabbath calculation...
...and yet you observe a perpetual 7th day Sabbath.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

That's the paradox exactly...

1844 depends on Jesus being crucified in 31 AD...
Greg - 1844 is a reference to an annual Sabbath not a weekly Sabbath. So you are mixing apples and oranges here.


...the 31 AD date is only possible using a Lunar Sabbath calculation...

Greg - Just simple calculations from 457 BC and the 70 week prophecy. The interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not require a lunar Sabbath calculation. So if you want to discuss Passover as a lunar driven Sabbath please feel free to do so.

...and yet you observe a perpetual 7th day Sabbath.

Greg - I do indeed observe a weekly 7th day Sabbath, each Saturday, just as Jesus did and just as Paul did, and just as the disciples did, and just as all loyal keepers of Jesus command do.

Troubleshooter

That's the paradox exactly...

These are not my 'apples' and 'oranges'...
...the 'apples' and 'oranges' belong to the Karaites...
...and maybe the Karaites mixed their 'apples' and 'oranges'...
...but William Miller used the Karaites mixed 'apples and 'oranges'...
...to establish 31 AD in his prophetic scheme that Seventh-day Adventists adopted.

So by embracing William Millers scheme, SDA's embraced the Karaites mixed 'apples' and 'oranges'.

I am not talking here about what you and I believe...
...I am telling you that the Karaites did calculate the weekly Sabbath...
...by reference to the Lunar cycles.

William Miller then used the Karaite calculation to...
...make 31 AD a viable date for inclusion in his prophetic scheme...
...and to arrive at the 22 Oct 1844 Day of Atonement...
...that marked the termination of the 2300 day/year prophecy.

I am not presenting a personal idea...this is history.


No...all that gives you is the year.

If you start calculating the 'seventy-sevens' from 457 BC...
...and you insist on a strict fulfillment...
...you must include 31 AD in the timeline to get to 1844...
...but there are other criteria to meet to make 31 AD a viable year for the crucifixion.

The criteria that must be satisfied to establish a viable date for the crucifixion.

It must be in the spring in the month following the Barley harvest.
In the month Nisan (Abib). Deut. 16:1
On the 14th day of that month. Lev 23:5
On the sixth day of the week. John 19:31
On a 'Preparation Day' (day before the Sabbath) Matt 27:62
On a night of a full moon.
Coinciding with a Passover. Lev 23:5
The beginning of the feast of unleavened bread. Ex 12:18
Coinciding with a Sabbath. Matt 28:1-2, John 19:31-32
The Wave Sheaf Offering and Resurrection day must coincide. Lev. 23:9, Mark 16:9

This criteria can not be satisfied in 31 AD if you run the current Julian/Gregorian weeks back...
...it ends up happening on a Tuesday/Wednesday...
...a Friday/Sabbath can only be satisfied in 30 AD and 33 AD...
...but William Miller was able to satisfy the criteria by using the Karaite luni/solar calendar...
...because it satisfies all the criteria every year...
...so 31 AD could fit the prophecy and get him through to 1844.


If you Greg and Jesus, Paul and the disciples observe(d) a successive weekly seventh-day Sabbath that is fine...
...but this can not be reconciled with William Millers use of a different form of Sabbath to establish the foundation prophetic doctrine of your church.

Let me state the Paradox another way...
...SDA's adopted a successive weekly Sabbath...
...that contradicts the form of Sabbath that was used to establish their prophetic origin.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

In my mind you are trying to make the Annual Sabbaths stand with the weekly Sabbaths. If that is not your thinking then remove the weekly Sabbaths from your discussion and stick to the Annual Sabbaths, Passover and Day of Atonement.

William Miller was not a Sabbatarian. He did believe in the annual Sabbaths for prophetic guidelines. He arrived at 31 AD from the 70 week prophecy.

Troubleshooter

If you take away the weekly Sabbath's from the Karaite calendar...
...you have no basis for a 31 AD crucifixion.


So there was no paradox for William Miller.


As I explained the 31 AD needs to satisfy more Biblical criterion...
...than linking it to a probable start for the 70 weeks prophecy.

You can't establish the crucifixion in the year 31 AD without the Karaite lunar sabbath.

The Karaite lunar calendar solved more than one problem for William Miller...
...but created a problem for SDA's once they became Sabbitarians.


See my discussion...
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=169252

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

Well I guess that we will have to depend upon your prophetic outline that fits all of the criteria. Can you lay it out from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah? What is the correct timeline?

Troubleshooter

Unless you can meet all the biblical criteria for the crucifixion of Christ in 31 AD your SDA prophetic timeline has no value.

I know this is a question no SDA can answer.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Greg Goodchild

If you believe that no SDA can answer your thought, when will you present the timeline so we can learn from you?

Tree of Life ©

Dear Greg,


I am a Seventh-day Adventist. In this post to you I am not only living proof of the fallacy of Troubleshooter's claim...:



I am also presenting what I believe is the present truth re "the correct timeline" you are calling for in your above post.

As you will see if you carefully study that which the Lord of Hosts has seen fit to show me - and to share with others like you through me - you should be able to recognize that this timeline meets all the Scriptural criteria. You will also recognize that it is correcting for the error of the 31AD crucifixion pointed out by Trouble Shooter and others, and while in so doing shedding much further light upon Daniel's prophecies, not excluding the 2,300 evenings and mornings.

You will also notice, upon studying my posts re this matter, that although Trouble Shooter is in error re his belief that the 1939 SDA Research Committee was at all considering any lunar based weekdays or Sabbaths outside of the three annual feasts, he is nevertheless correct in that said Committee made an error in finding support for a 31AD crucifixion and the still widely published - now obsoleted - truth re the 2,300 evenings and mornings as applied upon the years 457BC-27AD-31AD-1844AD.

Notice carefully however, that in no way does this new added light deter from the many exceeding blessings that has been coming to this planet thanks to that which before now was indeed the present truth!


1.
So here is the present truth timeline re Daniel's 490 day/year prophecy for you to study and consider:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/TreeOfLifeTimeSeventyWeekProphecyYearForDayCombined_files/image002.jpg or else treeoflife.freehostingclouc.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/TreeOfLifeTimeSeventyWeekProphecyYearForDayCombined_files/image002.jpg

(Please use this URL - Prior to my first 100 posts I am not given the ability to post images or links directly! And please be sure to always remove any and all spaces within my posted URLs - or they won't work!)


2.
For more details re the present truth re Daniel's prophecies, please use this link:
adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com/TreeOfLife.wan.io/OTCh/Centuries1to7BCE/GateWayToDanielsPropheciesAndOTHistoryFromAboutHisTime.htm

(You'll find the above image under item 1e. within this last link.)


3.
For more details re the 31AD error as presented by the 1938/1939 SDA GC Research Committee please consider my post at:
forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?p=5671706#post5671706


May God bless you abundantly in your further studies of these matters,

Tree of Life (c)

Troubleshooter

I have not seen where you have refuted the main contension of this thread.

SDA origins were established using a Karaite Lunar calendar whose Sabbath was determined by a cycle that renewed each New Moon...
...and SDA's observe a Sabbath determined by a Julian/Gregorian calendar.

The irony is that the 31AD date for Jesus crucifixion...
...necessary for their 2300 day/year prophetic scheme...
...can not be established without using a Lunar calendar.

None of your wordy comments so far have come close to resolving this.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

commen tater

Would it be possible to use a piece of astronomy software such as "Starry Night" to solve some of this? You ought to be able to punch in your exact location on the planet and the date and see what the night sky (including phases of the moon) looked like on a given night and at a given location.

Troubleshooter

I was looking to establish dates for Jesus crucifixion when I came across the Star of Bethlehem site http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/

He has carefully examined the historical data and used astronomy calculations and software (like Starry night) in his quest to determine the coincidence of astronimical events and Jesus birth and crucifixion.

April 4 of 33 AD fits the criteria demanded by the astronomical data and the historical witness...
...it even coincides a Lunar Sabbath with a Julian/Gregorian Saturday...
...but 33 AD does not fit the SDA 2300 day/year prophetic schema...
...on which their organization finds its origin, identity and purpose.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

commen tater

I suppose that because we believe that the Sun and the Moon and the Stars move throughout the heavens with such God-give precision and that we can know where they were or will be at any given point in history means that we will be looked upon as Rabbinical Literalists.

Troubleshooter

The SDA problem is that Ellen endorsed it...
...Ellen says that Jesus rested in Joseph's tomb on a Sabbath...
...and that this Sabbath was also a Passover.

"At last Jesus was at rest. The long day of shame and torture was ended. As the last rays of the setting sun ushered in the Sabbath, the Son of God lay in quietude in Joseph's tomb. His work completed, His hands folded in peace, He rested through the sacred hours of the Sabbath day.

"With this scene the day upon which Jesus rested is forever linked. For "His work is perfect;" and "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever." Deut. 32:4; Eccl. 3:14. When there shall be a "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:21), the creation Sabbath, the day on which Jesus lay at rest in Joseph's tomb, will still be a day of rest and rejoicing. Heaven and earth will unite in praise, as "from one Sabbath to another" (Isa. 66:23) the nations of the saved shall bow in joyful worship to God and the Lamb." Ellen White DA Chapter 80

"That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb." Ibid

Elsewhere Ellen endorses 31AD...
...and the Gregorian Saturday/Sabbath identity.

But you can't have a Sabbath - Saturday - Passover combination in 31 AD.

If SDA's shift their crucifixion date to 33AD...
...they then have trouble with the 457BC origin for the 2300 day/year scheme...
...and 1844 has to become 1846.

Either way the SDA system has created a paradox...
...which can't be resolved without changing their view of Ellen's inspiration...
...or by ignoring history, scripture and astonomical data.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -