Moshiac

pythons

If by kept, you infer that the ancient Hebrew calendar was a perpetual 7 day weekly cycle whereas day 7 was always a Sabbath then I am suggesting that.

Joshua 6 describes the Children of Israel marching around the city of Jericho for 7 days. What day of the weekly cycle you suggest this campaign initiated on is irrelevant as each day the Israelites were under the burden of arms and packing around the Ark. That's work. If the cycle, as you state, was unbroken and weekly the Sabbath day they really got busy and humped around the city seven times then when the walls fell down they put everyone to the sword, "burned up stuff", etc, etc, etc.

Where do you get a seven day weekly cycle outside of Tradition? I'm Catholic so I "get" Tradition and certainly wouldn't fault you for claiming Jewish Tradition tells you that a weekly cycle was perpetual.

Opp's, my wife is yelling at me to come to bed so I'll take another crack at the rest tomorrow.

Peace.

BOLSHY

Joshua 6 describes the Children of Israel marching around the city of Jericho for 7 days. What day of the weekly cycle you suggest this campaign initiated on is irrelevant as each day the Israelites were under the burden of arms and packing around the Ark. That's work. If the cycle, as you state, was unbroken and weekly the Sabbath day they really got busy and humped around the city seven times then when the walls fell down they put everyone to the sword, "burned up stuff", etc, etc, etc.

Here your perception of how the Sabbath is to be kept is skewed by the New Testament's over simplification/ interpretation and understanding of "work" and is caught up in the power struggles of conflicting opinions of that era, namely between Pharisee, Sadducee et al. To emphasise this consider how on the one hand there is a prohibition in Torah to kindle a flame on the Sabbath and boiling / cooking and yet sacrifices are placed on a fire by the priests daily including the Sabbath. The Pharisees insisted as a matter of principle that warm food be eaten on the Sabbath as opposed to the Sadducee who did not allow it. Oral law is vital in this respect in order to establish how to keep the Sabbath (E.g. how does one have warm food without cooking/ kindling a flame?). Oral law determines for instance how. what and when one is permitted to do on the Sabbath and is not an easy thing to determine. However, a consistent line of Oral transmission has been maintained otherwise how could the following be true?

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth [month], and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace. Zech 8:19 (These are fasts ordained by oral law BTW)

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you. (v22, 23)

__________________

Troubleshooter

I found the reference...Book of Jasher chapter 88 recounts the history of Israel and Jericho.


14 And it was in the second month, on the first day of the month, that the Lord said to Joshua, Rise up, I have given Jericho into your hand with all of its people; and all your fighting men shall go round the city, once each day, in this manner shall you do for six days.
15 And the priests shall blow upon trumpets, and when you shall hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall give a great shouting, that the walls of the city shall fall down; all the people shall go up every man against his opponent.
16 And Joshua did so according to all that the Lord had commanded him.
17 And on the seventh day they went round the city seven times, and the priests blew upon trumpets.
18 And at the seventh round, Joshua said to the people, Shout, for the Lord has delivered the whole city into our hands.

However, the seventh day was not a Sabbath day...
...but the day before the Sabbath...
...because they were using a Lunar calendar calculation.



First day of the second month Lyar is a New Moon day...
...so Israel marched around Jericho for seven days without encountering a weekly Sabbath...
...so Jericho was 'delivered' on day seven before the Sabbath on day eight.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

pythons

I've got no issue with Sacred Oral Tradition, especially given that St Paul was a Pharisee and by default would have fully accepted it as an article of faith. The Book of Jasher, Chapter 88:14 states that the campaign of Jericho started on the 1st day of the "second month", if the New Moon day is day "1" then the Israelites would have started the campaign and completed the battle Prior to the 8th day, which counting from the New Moon, would have been the Sabbath.

As for the opinions between Saaducee & Pharisee the only debate I'm aware of is how to keep the existing Sabbath, not what day the Sabbath was on. This tells me that both groups were observing the same day.



Universal Jewish Ency (The one I quoted from that said the Sabbath was dependent on the New Moon).

New Moon day (1) 2nd Day, 3rd Day, 4th Day, 5th Day, 6th Day, 7th Day, 8th Day, 9th Day, 10,th Day, 11th Day, 12th Day, 13th Day, 14th Day, 15th Day (from the last New Moon).

Vs.

1,2,3,4,5,6,7 - 1,2,3 (select a lamb),4,5,6,7 (kill the lamb and eat it) - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7


This looks like the starting of a clock to me, with the Day G-D spoke to Moses being the first day of the first month of the first year (to the Israelites).

The New Schaff Herzog Encylpedia speaks as to the difference between the current calendar and the one observed by Moses clearly,

This is what above seems to be the issue. And I would say that there certainly is a chance given that I've quoted both a Christian and Jewish Source that says the same thing.


This "is" the argument.




I've got no problem with that and provided I just understood what you said in fact agree with you. There would have been a need for a change to adjust the calendar so that it wasn't totally out of sync with the seasons. As a Catholic I would accept Sacred Tradition as binding as the Scripture. The argument presented within this thread was one which held a wrecking ball whereas Seventh-day Adventist's are concerned in that they used a calendar that outlived it's purpose to support a doctrine that is not found in the Tanach, in other words if they used a lunar calendar to prove their doctrine correct they would be also bound to use that same calendar to observe the Sabbath "of that times" calendar. I have no problem with the calendar being adjusted nor do I have a problem with the authorization coming from the Established Religious Authority of Judaism.



Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac However, bear in mind that Noach was not obligated to observe the 7th day or festivals according to Jewish understanding. Years however, as I stated before do not change and the weekly cycle is not affected by the moon now or before. In any case the Sanhedrin (which was dominated in Jesus' day by the Pharisees with the Saducees having sway with the temple priesthood) appointed the times. The Talmud has many arguments betwen the Pharisees and Saducees regarding issues of the Oral law and with the observance of shavuot in particular (see Menuchos 64 &65)

Again, I agree that Noah was ignorant of the Sabbath. All I'm saying is that if we were able to get into a time machine and go back to the time of Moses our Gergorian Saturday would not be the Sabbath Moses was celebrating, that's all I'm saying.

Troubleshooter

You are just fulfilling scripture Moshiac...

Lamentations 2:6 "And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

BOLSHY

They (solemn feasts and sabbaths) obviously must have been re-remembered hundreds years prior to Jesus. Otherwise if indeed he (Jesus) was the Messiah and was to fulfil all the law of Moses he would have sorted this one out at his first coming would he not? Or was he just happy to get along with things and ignore it?

__________________

jda3324

bump for any sda

Why is it that Adventist are avoiding this thread???

Moshiac

Probably because the topic itself is rather more ridiculous than the 1844 IJ.

pythons

There is certainly no doubt that this thread proves "Religious Authority" is a Biblical Doctrine, i.e. Oral Tradition.

jda3324

Just out of curiosity do you have any comments on:

Hosea 2: 11 I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts.

Moshiac

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and [without] teraphim:Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days. Hos 3:4,5

jda3324

Regardless of your take on this, it is particularly amusing that SDA's refuse to touch this after all these months. After all it is the hinge pin of Adventism. If there is anyone at all that should be beating this down as hard as possible it would be the SDA's....but alas... they are no where to be found.

After reading this ongoing post it appears to me that there are some holes in your thesis. I am not saying you are wrong, but this subject is worthy of significantly more discussion. The Sabbath is the center piece of Adventism and as such should be open for all to contend for historical accuracy, sound hermeneutics and exegesis. I am certainly no expert in those fields but do enjoy reading what others have to contribute on this, including yours

Tree of Life ©

I, for one, am a Seventh-day Adventist…














Dear jda3324,


I don’t know whether or not you recognize the difference between formal memberships in a State registered SDA Church and between a living breathing Seventh-day Adventist member of a Seventh-day Adventist church of flesh and blood, but I for one reckon myself as being one among the latter, not only by birth and upbringing, but from the bottom of my heart. (Upon careful consideration of the realities of proprietorship, trusteeship, delegation of responsibility, etc. as associated with the former, I have effectively rescinded every membership, citizenship, etc. that I am aware of in any and all such as are subject to all that which is represented by the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream as recorded in Daniel, chapter 2. I’ve done so in consequence of the insistent warnings to each and all of us throughout the Holy Scriptures and especially as recorded in Revelation 14:6-12 and 18:4.)

If you are one of those represented by the Bereans (as referenced by Paul) you may wish to pursue in depth my past and forthcoming posts. Or, at the very least, you are heartily invited to do so!


Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

pythons

It's good to see you hear T.O.L. Eventually I will get over to C.A. and post my Trinity work.

Victor

Welcome to the forum!
I too am not a member or a citizen of any European nation, and there are lots of others here who share that status. Not that I'm aware of any significance we should attach to Europe...

Could you turn off the imbedded Verdana fonts from your profile font selection, and leave it with the default font? There are a lot of imbedded codes that are difficult to strip from your quotes.

__________________
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly? - Lord Byron

Tree of Life ©

Thanks Victor!

I too am having problems with the imbedded codes. It looks to me as thought the default font is Verdana, which is why I use that font when writing my posts in Word. If you could give me a hint as to how I can get the default font when copy/pasting my Word edited posts to the forum I’d find it most helpful! Thanks!

And no, Adamah Republic © is not a “European nation.” But, perhaps that is not what you implied? Adamah is a Scriptural name/word meaning ‘soil’ or ‘earth’ (Strong’s H126-128) and pertaining to planet Earth as well as to any other planet within the universal dominion of our great Creator and God. So, you see, I’m not a subject or citizen of any government or other hierarchy created by or voted into existence by men...

I perceive that as important in view of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of the 10 Commandments, which commandments I perceive as potential blessings of rest to each one choosing to accept them for what they are.



Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

Victor

What you can do is change the default editing screen you paste text into from the 'rich text' mode to 'plain text' in your profile - and you can toggle modes anytime by clicking on the 'aA' icon in the upper right corner of the editing screen, right above the yellow guy holding the stick. I use the plain text myself, as it allows you to see everything and edit in manual codes. It is just like pasting text into Notepad, which will not accept the hidden codes that are imbedded from vitually every word processor and web page you fetch text from.

Or, you could simply type into the editor instead of pasting text - which is the common practice.
I edited the font codes so that you can see what MS Word is imbedding.
Okay, I didn't know what adamah referred to.
And my reference to Europe was from your previous comment regarding the list of kingdoms represented by the statue of elements in Daniel 2. We're in the time of the feet of iron mixed with clay that replaced Rome. This is the individual European nation states, and it is this condition of the world that is struck by the Rock from heaven.
We accept the ten commandments for what they are defined to be according to the law itself - they were the first covenant that was ordained at Sinai (Exodus 34:27-28, Deuteronomy 4:12-13). It was this covenant that we were delivered from, and was taken away by the Hand of God: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

__________________
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. - Psalm 127:1
He who is only just is cruel. Who on earth could live were all judged justly? - Lord Byron

Brotherbrian

It would have implications if SDA's believed that the weekly sabbath should be calculated by the lunar cycle, which they do not.

Nor do I.

__________________
"It is an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling." - Proverbs 20:3

Shalom, amigos....
Brian

Israel.Ysrayl

I used to be a devoted 7th day Adventist for a few years, till I discovered that the calendar we use today is a "Roman Christian (Gregorian) Calendar" which is no where mentioned in scripture. There is no data / information on ancient Israel calculating New moon, 7th day sabbath and the holy feast days on a solar roman christian calendar.

New moon is scriptural and the Hebrew 1st weekly cycle, begins with the New moon, as being it is the beginning of the month (Numbers 10:10) On the other hand, the calendar that we use today "Gregorian" calendar does not constitute New moon as the beginning of the month, which was done on purpose by the Roman empire (Daniel 7:25)

In regards to Moses, during his time, give or take 1491 B.C. The roman Empire did not come into the scene till 753 B.C. through the discovering of this empire, was by a man named Romulus who name the city in Latin "Roma"

The 1st Solar calendar that came into existence after the Exodus period was 46 B.C. that was introduced by Julius Caesar.

So upon doing the math, the Biblical Israelites (including Moses) was observing a Hebrew Lunar calendar, like 738 years till the Roman empire came into existence.

Ancient Israel has continued to use the Hebrew lunar calendar, even when the 1st solar calendar from Rome came into existence, which is 1,445 years later from the exodus period.

From the Exodus period, till the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Ancient Israel has always been observing a Hebrew lunar calendar. (Genesis 1:14, Psalm 104:19, Jeremiah 31:35)

More of this information that is supported through scripture and by valid historical facts can be found in my website.

Website: lunarsabbath.co.nr

Troubleshooter

Thank you for your clear summary.

This topic was explored here...
The Adventist Sabbath Paradox
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=174603

Their Paradox is simply this...
Seventh-day Adventists claim an origin that was calculated using the Lunar calendar...
...but observe a weekly Sabbath based on the Gregorian calendar.

No Seventh-day Adventist has yet been able to reconcile this anomally.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Yes, TroubleShooter,


I do recognize that you are unable to perceive any such Seventh-day Adventist...

so long as you remain unwilling to open your eyes and look... ¦=)




As I've said before, you are correct in pointing out such things as you perceive as being errors and erroneous teachings. That's valuable feedback!

However, sometimes your own reference frame as to what is truth and what is error may be flawed and based on less than solid ground. When approaching another, whomever he, she, or it may be, you owe it to yourself to be receptive to such valuable feedback to you as may be pointing out certain errors in your own perception as you've been previously unaware of. Once you accept such feedback for what it is you are likely to value it accordingly...


I believe this is one chief principle built into Yehoshua's teaching to each us of per Matthew 18:15-20.




God has given each of us a mirror in one another. It pays to use it!

Rev 3:17-22

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Shalom,

Tree of Life (c)

By One who is a living breathing Seventh-day Adventist of flesh and blood - while not being at all a FICTITIOUS ALL CAPS REGISTERED MEMBER of any State registered FICTION whatsoever... Not even of such a FICTION as may be registered under a NAME such as is using within it the words 'SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST' ANYTHING.

- Could it be that this is why you cannot see me? Perhaps if you try using some other glasses such as aren't filtering out the real sunshine and such as are not FICTIONS or FICTITIOUS BEINGS?

PS. Thanks for helping me find this thread once again! This is where we first met, remember!

Troubleshooter

You have not answered the paradox either...
...you have only tried to obscurate, redefine or ignore history.

I will state the paradox again for your benefit...

SDA's fix their origin to a date set using a Lunar calendar...
...you can only have the October 22 1844 date for the Day of Atonement...
...you can only have a 31 AD crucifixion date...
...by using of a Lunar calendar.

But in contrast to this...
...SDA's observe a Sabbath determined by a Gregorian calendar.

A Gregorian calendar reckoning is never used in biblical literature.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Dear Trouble Shooter,


Yes, I have no doubt but that that is how it may appear from your point of veiw... That is, relative to the way you may define things and relative to history as you've been given to perceive it through the eyes of someone else's filtered glasses

The word "obscurate," as used by you is given the following definitions, that is, per MS's Encarta Dictionary Tools:

"obscure a general word for something that is difficult to understand... because it involves areas of knowledge or study that are not known to most people;

"2. indistinct: not able to be seen or heard distinctly

"4. known to few people: unknown to most people, for example, because of being hidden or remote."

(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)

Now, that is not a definition of my own making, yet that is the kind of definitions I am using to the best of my ability. I do not know how you define that same word, but it appears to me as though if and when I describe a reality "that [is] not known to [you as being one of] most people" then you will indeed perceive that which I am sharing with you as obscure... And, in consequence you're likely to blame me for being the one that is "obscurating" things for you, whereas the reality is that your eye lids may still feel too heavy for you to wake up to a new and more certain realization of events as they really happened.


So, yes, indeed, what I am doing as best I can in my little corner of God's kingdom is to help all of us get rid of such flawed definitions and understandings of history as we have inherited through our predecessors who have not always been careful enough to solidly base everything they say on a solid and firm foundation, but who have instead satisfied themselves with such gossip as are handed down to them by traditions of men that have been accumulating ever more errors over many generations...





You see, and as I've told you before again and again, I'm not trying to defend anyone's error anymore than I'll stand up and give my support for your errors. I'm not trying to defend the errors of perception in the eyes of the people who experienced in their own lives that which came to be called 'the great disappointment of the Millerite movement,' which was calculated to October 22, 1844, and which day was believed by those same people to be the proper Scriptural Day of Atonement. Nor am I trying to defend the errors built into the 31AD crucifixion date, nor any of the errors being built upon any of those things.




What I am doing my best to do is to sort things out such that errors of thought may be discarded while retaining whatever pearls of truth that may have been previously obscured by such errors as did exist and which may still be taught. No doubt that is pretty much what you are aiming to do too, is it not?






Let's focus for a moment upon the term 'the Seventh-day Advent movement.' There is nothing in that name that is being destroyed or washed away by a realization that the expected events of October 22, 1844 did not happen. Likewise for a 31AD crucifixion. Yes, those ideas and expectations have been prominent in the eyes of many beholders, and many have been building castles upon sandy foundations in consequence of such errors of teaching. This is deplorable, but at least those same people were doing their very best in building beautiful castles of sand upon the beach. I'd say that's doing much better than those next to them that were doing nothing but sleeping in the sun and getting a sun burn.

Both the words 'Advent' and 'movement' imply the idea of getting places, of moving on from point A to point B to point... In order to be able to keep moving effectively God has ordained certain places of rest and remembrance, thus the 'Seventh-day Sabbath.' People that are not accepting such blessings of God will sooner or later tire and wear themselves out, such that they will sit down for good, while even resisting any further movement in the direction of God's Kingdom.

Thus, you may recognize that those people of the Seventh-day Advent movement, beginning with the recognition of the Seventh-day Sabbath awakening in 1845, were able to gain strength for picking up the pieces and begin again upon their onwards path to ever more light and to an ever better comprehension of that which is and of that which was and of that which shall be. Others, who rejected said blessing of regular sevening, i.e. cleansing, rest, gave up on their prior faith and conviction while becoming instead - like once king Saul - questioners and scoffers willing to ask questions but not willing to know the answers to their own questions. Thus, theirs became lives of disillusionment, depression, sorrow, yes, even sickness and death.





So yes, TroubleShooter, you've been most helpful to me in making me get a deeper insight into what was and what was not regarding the Millerites perception of those dates, that is, October 22, 1844AD and 31AD. Yet, those dates are in no way the ultimate foundation and reason for the Seventh-day Advent movement. On the contrary, there are important aspects and details pertaining to those dates that are best reckoned with the dust and dirt upon the feet of the untiring travelers, traveling, as they are, to a better city and towards a better country, that is, towards the New Jerusalem and the Kingdom of God. Indeed, October 22, 1844AD, may well be likened to a mirage in the desert seen by thirsty travelers. Yet, there is valuable truth to be perceived also in understanding the science behind the phenomenon of 'mirages.' Once clearly understood, it is much easier to deal with repetitive experiences of such kind.




The fact that it has become obvious to me that you are unable to provide any solid and lasting foundation for a Scriptural, or even a Karaite, lunar driven Sabbath, does not deter from the values you have been providing me re e.g. the Rabbinic practice of reckoning the months based ultimately upon the astronomical full moon and a certain "horned moon" as it appears experiencially 13 days prior to said full moon. That is, by sharing with me certain valuable references which you yourself obviously find obscure, you've been pointing me in the direction of certain important rays of light which to me are quite valuable. That is, valuable in the sense of understanding the flawed bases underneath certain powerful hierarchies of men, hierarchies that I'd otherwise be more liable to be fooled and enslaved by to my own destruction...




And it is true, as you say, that "A Gregorian calendar reckoning is never used in biblical literature," that is in the Holy Scriptures themselves! That is my point exactly, which is why I'm doing my best to lift up, for the benefit of yours and others, the true Scriptural calendar. Going from the Gregorian calendar to God's own Scriptural calendar is quite a paradigm shift. In the eyes of such as are brought up with the Gregorian calendar, and you are obviously not excluded youself Troubleshooter, the Scriptural calender will seem at first riddled with errors, confusing, and, yes, 'obscured...' - As in "obscurated" by me...




I wish you all the best in your further pursuit towards a better land and towards a better understanding of God's own Scriptural calendar,


Shalom,


Tree of Life (c)




PS. There is much re the true Scriptural calendar at my website adamoh.org or else treeoflife.uhostfull.com

Please enjoy and grow with it!

Troubleshooter

Obscurate is the vocative masculine singular of the Latin obscuratus.

Meaning, darkened, obscured, having been obscured, concealed, hidden, having been concealed.
Figurative use: blinded, beclouded, having been blinded, rendered indistinct, having been rendered indistinct, suppressed, having been kept unknown.

Common useage:
obscurantism n, obscurantist n, obscuration n
A style in art and literature characterized by deliberate vagueness or obliqueness.

obscurantic, obscurant adj

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

So, you see TroubleShooter, there really isn't much of any paradox in the fact that while being on the way traveling, we do pick up some dust that will need to be washed off from time to time... Now, is there?

So you see, so far as I am concerned, that is the essence of all of that which you identify and claim as being "The Adventist Sabbath Paradox."

Troubleshooter

I guess what you are suggesting is possible...
...but it would require some official recognition that there is a paradox...
...then examine the impications and make the necessary changes...
...then we could all have a good laugh and move on.

But I can't see it happening.

__________________
- Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Tree of Life ©

Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. Tree of Life ©













Dear TroubleShooter,


I am happy to hear you saying "I guess what you are suggesting is possible...!"


But... Why are you allowing something that's outside of yourself - and outside of God's will for you - to hold you back?

That is, why are you allowing your own progress along the way to depend upon, as you say, "but it would require some official recognition that there is a paradox..."

Or are you in fact still so much identifying your own self and beingness with that officialdom that you cannot move unless the remainder of that body of officialdom is moving along with you? The thought that's coming to my mind is that of a baby inside its mother's uterus which surely cannot move any place lest its mother is moving there also...

Perhaps what you need is another born-again experience, that is, such that you may run around freely while making yourself comfortable with surroundings laying further and further away from your mother?

Remember too, how that inside your mother's uterus everything must of necessity have been either dark or at least obscure to the point of you being able to see nothing at all before your eyes, and then, in stark contrast to that, the bright lights and oh so many other confusing but interesting things arousing your curiosity once you were delivered from the narrow confines of the tiny prison inside your mother's belly?



So also it is with all things, beginning in darkness and utter obscurity, with time, light comes... Black can be distinguished from white, then ever more colors of the spectrum may be recognized... At first one doesn't understand what one is looking at, but with time one will learn ever better to make sense and use of that which one is experiencing. Learning from one's own mistakes is part and parcel of that progress. Learning from the prior mistakes of others is something learnt a little later on...


Likewise it was for the Advent people that were part of the Millerite movement. Some of them found values to retain and grow on from their great disappointment. Others became disgusted and turned away entirely, throwing out the baby with the bathwater... over reacting! Of those that retained some values some continued to refine their understanding while reaching ever loftier vistas and while discarding more an more of their prior baggage, which baggage they found were incompatible with their ongoing progress...


Others went into hiding within the narrow confines of fictions of their own making... Fictions within which perhaps they felt a certain sense of security and rest. Fictions such as State or Church as formalized by men into ever more fossilized structures of rock. Immobile. As in the Roman Catholic motto: Semper aedem - meaning 'Always the same.' Or as in various creeds formalized by various orthodoxies and churches. Or as in creed like books such as 'Seventh-day Adventists Believe...' That is, such flawed creations of men as do indeed receive "official recognition" and acceptance by such as are seeking their security, not it truth as it really is in life, but in the immobile errors of traditions of men.


But fictions are dead things. Like that which is being said so aptly re committees: First nothing, then suddenly coming to life in the form of a giant living beast for the few minutes that the committee meeting lasts, then forever dead and gone, leaving only a few written tracks forming and shaping the lives of the survivors of its beingness.


But officialdom is nothing but such a fiction. It cannot be changed. Trying to change it is as futile as for the autistic child to keep banging its head against a wall. It is useless...


Yet, all too many people seem to have a most difficult time untangling themselves from those dead beasts. All too many people insist on seeking the approval of such beastlike structures in our society, whether such be governments of State, governments of Church, or of any other unto whom they keep delegating their authority... All too many people keep identifying themselves in terms of such dead fictions. Even to the point of using all kinds of IDs, driver's licenses, ID Cards, formal membership in various Churches and denominations, etc. But dead things are dead things. They cannot move by any volition of their own. They have no brain. They cannot think. And more than that, those ID cards etc. are very much the essence of that which the God of Freedom is releasing His people from by means of the Second Commandment of Ten per Deuteronomy 5:8-10...




Yes, TroubleShooter, it is time to for you and me, that is, for each one among the living breathing people, to "examine the impications and make the necessary changes..."


Indeed to "have a good laugh and move on..."




Do you see that happening a little more clearly now? Do you perceive who the chief actor is in making this happen? What powers do you have over your own life and thinking? Is your life, and your life options, getting perhaps just a little less foggy and a little less 'obscure' yet?

Do you perceive how that you have already received the very highest official recognition possible for any action based on truth? That is, the recognition of Him that is the Creator of the universe, and the God of Freedom, the author of the Second Commandment, which commandment is your "official recognition..." Not forgetting the Fourth and all the remainder among the Ten!




Shalom,


Tree of Life ©






PS. To me it was with a great sense of relief when many years ago I realized I do not have to convert my whole society, or even any of my best friends, before being able to keep on tracking under the guidance of none other than the God of Truth, my Savior and Redeemer!


PS II. Perhaps you'll see some light in sharing with me some of what the Ancient of Days has shown me along the way? - Things being in the nature of moving from out of obscurity and into clear and bright sunshine such that ever more details may be distinguished and understood:

In God's calendar dark and cool periods always precedes the light and warm periods, thus:

...the 24-hour day begins with darkness slowly creeping in before or near the sunset and ends with the light and heat waning away after the following sunset. The hours are numbered beginning with sun rise, not at sunset. During the dark hours people sleep, dream, make plans and tentative decisions. During the light hours plans are being realized...;

...the 12 or 13 moon year begins with the darker and colder season slowly creepin in at fall/autumn and ends with the brighter and warmer season waning away a year later. The end of the year is defined as the Feast of Ingathering, which lasts through Tishri 21, with Hag HaAzaret or the Eighth Day on Tishri 22 representing something new, that is, the dark beginnings of the new year. The months of the year are numbered from the time when the barley is ripe enough to be called aviv, that is from the spring, the brighter and warmer season, not from the fall - parallelling the situation of the 24 hour day;

...the 29 or 30 day months are being numbered from the first visible New Moon crescent as visible at Jerusalem and the Promised Land, Israel, yet interestingly Tishri 22 is a date closely tied with the waning half moon preceding the time when the moon is dark and cannot be seen, and thus in a sense the Scriptural months could be said to begin each month with the dark portion of the months as well;

...in God's creation everything is mathematically perfect and without flaw. This mathematical aspect of time is represented by the fact that even before the creation of the sun, the moon, and the stars, the first day was created while being defined simply by the words "and the darkness and the lightness is one day" Genesis 1:5;

...in God's creation the 7-day week was defined before there was a complete month. This too helps us recognize that God's math is of higher priority than that which is being defined by the time keepers He created on the 4th day of creation. Cf. Genesis 2:1-3 and Leviticus 23:2-3. Notice that in Leviticus 23 the weekly Sabbath is being ordained and defined before any of the annual feasts are being defined, before any of the Feasts being governed by the moon is being defined...

PS III. Or, could it be that you are seeking the "official recognition" of a body of men, because there is no authority or recognition to be found from the Lord of Hosts, as pre-authorized in the Holy Scriptures? That is, for such errors, of your own imagination and fiction, as a lunar driven Seventh-day Sabbath etc.? Would you really wish for your erroneous claims re the Adventist Sabbath Paradox to be paraded next to the abominable teachings re the Trinity and Tammuz et al. being One and the same as the Lord and author of the Holy Scriptures? But, I for one do have a hard time believing that that is your wish. It isn't, is it?



PS IV. Notice also please, that, a 31AD crucifixion, albeit not possible for other reasons, by no means requires a lunar driven Sabbath, but could be satisfied also by the use of a standard Rabbinic Jewish calendar, based as it is upon the "horned moon," a reverse count of 13 days from the astronomical full moon, and such as is further discussed in Part V of that flawed 1939 Research Committee report of the State registered SDA General Conference... Which, Rabbinic practice of reckoning is of course not based upon the written Torah, only upon the oral Torah and other such like traditions of men, based as they are upon the one infamous and unchangeable Traducer and Gossip-monger whose name is better know as Satan...



Without recourse. All Rights Reserved. Tree of Life ©

Tree of Life ©

Dear Ysrayl,


Thank you for sharing your experiences along your route heavenwards!

I appreciate and value your honest seeking for more truth and for your proven willingness to act upon your convictions.


Now, I don't know whether, or to what extent, you may have read my posts within this thread and within TroubleShooter's thread The Adventist Sabbath Paradox, but if you have, you may realize that so far I've not been able to discover anything to the effect of giving me reason to believe that the Seventh-day Sabbath was originally ordained as an event based upon the New Moon crescent. Nor have I found anything solid to make me believe that such a reading was ever used within biblical times. All I've found are some vague and unreferenced surmises as stated in some Jewish encyclopedia etc. that such is presumed to have been the case. To me that is nothing like a firm footing for taking action. Quite to the contrary, based upon what I've come to learn re the forces behind, and the owners of, such publications!




Thus, you can perhaps better understand where I am coming from. Having said that, I will now go on and ask you a few questions while pointing out a few items that I discovered upon going through and studying all the details and all the pages of your published website at lunarsabbath.co.nr

First, I commend you for your clear and concise presentation at that website of yours! Thank you, and praise the Lord of Hosts!






Carefully considering your proposed base for a lunar driven 7th Day Sabbath


Second, the closest thing I find, within your website, to anything in support of a lunar driven Sabbath is Genesis 1:14 and the words "and let them be for signs, and for seasons..."

Considering the very early placement of this passage within Genesis and within the Torah those words must be given very much weight and priority. Thus, while composing and writing these very words of mine, I am contemplating in my mind what is and what is not, what should be and what should not be... I am weighing one Scripture passage against another, trying my best to sort out for myself what may be the truth re God's intention and God's directions for each of us re these particulars...

One thing that I notice is that just as in the first half of Genesis 1:5 the day, the light, and 'the greater light,' are all consistently mentioned before the contrasting words 'the night,' 'the darkness,' and 'the lesser light.' Yet, it is clear from the definition found in the concluding half of Genesis 1:5 that the time unit being called 'one day' [mistranslated in KJV as "the first day"] consists first of a period of darkness [KJV translation 'evening'] and second of a period of light [KJV translation 'morning.'] One obvious, to me, reason for thus referencing consistently the things of light before the things of darkness is that darkness is nothing in and of its own while being in fact merely the absence of light. Yet, when it comes to time itself, time has an existence that is independent upon the presence of light. Thus, to me, it makes sense to read and understand the words in the order they are found first of all in verse 5 and then also in verses 14-19.

Another thing that I notice is that, following that first day of creation which carries in itself God's definition of 'a day' or 'one day,' and prior to the creation of the things created on the 4th day, I see the second and the third day being already reckoned, that is, independently of the things created on the 4th day. And obviously each of the seven days being referenced in Genesis 1:1-2:3 are part and parcel of that seven day period, or week, of which the Seventh-day Sabbath is the crowning event. Thus, at least initially, I am not perceiving the Seventh-day Sabbath as being subject to that which, per verse 14, is coming under the words "and let them be for signs, and for seasons."

That is, my initial impression is that, given that:

1. the beginning of that which is defined as Day One per Genesis 1:5, and
2. the beginning of that which is defined as Day Seven per Genesis 2:1-3, as well as
3. the beginning of that unit of time which is being defined by the seven days being reckoned in Genesis 1:1-2:3,

...given that each and all of said beginnings precede the beginnings of those heavenly bodies that were created on the 4th day

...it seems to follow that those three items cannot be ruled by such things as were created at a later time, but must be, instead, ruled by something of a higher order of priority. Among such things of a higher order I can easily perceive the principles of math as well as all that which we call 'the laws of nature.' Unto such laws it is obvious to me that the sun, the moon, and the stars are all subject.


I also notice that, so far as I am aware, 'one day' as defined in verse 5, the Seventh-day Sabbath, and the corresponding seven day period, those three items are the only 'seasons' defined prior to the events recorded in Genesis chapter 3 etc.. In a very special way I recognize that our God, the one being identified in Genesis 1, that is, by His actions, as the creator, is identifying with those same three seasons of time.


In contradistinction to that, I recognize that the special Feasts, ordained as they are 'for ever' (cf. e.g. Exodus 12:14, 17,) as defined in Leviticus 23:4-44, are all designed to teach and remind God's own lost or wayward Sons and Daughters about the way back out of "the house of bondage" into which each of us and together have brought ourselves, and into which we, without God's direct guidance, will otherwise keep on bringing ourselves.

That is, in a very special sense, those heavenly bodies on the sky above us are designed to be very much the same as are those two cherubs of which are spoken in Genesis 3:24, that is, those "Cherubim... [with] a flaming sword which turned every way," just like do all the heavenly bodies on the sky... And furthermore, very much the same as those other two cherubim, which are being spoken of in Exodus 25:18-22, which Cherubim in a very special sense do represent an ongoing dialog between two parties while having their focus upon that which belong to their Creator, and first and foremost among which are those males and those females who, being bound by a holy promise of marriage, continually seek the presence and guidance of the God in their midst.

Then again, it occurs to me that the purpose stated for the heavenly bodies per Genesis 1:14-19 was initiated not only before the fall of man, but even before man was created. Thus I would be in error to conclude that the heavenly bodies would only be of use as intended if and when man were to fall into sin, wouldn't I? The thought that comes to my mind at this point is that God's intention was for man always to use those heavenly bodies as their basis for all their reckoning of time. Only by so doing would they be able to stay tuned to God's own time table and to God's own reckoning of time, that is, only by so doing would they be able to stay in harmony with their Creator. Doing otherwise would naturally and necessarily tend towards making them ever more disoriented and ever more tuned out of the frequency, and out of the means, of direct communication with their creator.

All that having been said then, gives me the initial impression that the heavenly bodies created on the Fourth Day cannot and should not be perceived as ruling and controlling the reckoning of that which we know of as the regular days of the week. That is to say, my initial impression is that the Seventh-day Sabbath is not a lunar driven event controlled by the visible New Moon crescent.



But allow me to carry this one step further... If we perceive the objects of light that were created on the Fourth Day as the visible results of that which had been created during the first half of the first seven days, that is, during days One through Three and extending even into the dark portion of Day Four, then it seems to me clear that said seven day period may also be perceived in terms of one darkness plus light cycle. That is, the first 3 1/2 days of the week may be perceived in terms of the dark and cool portion of the week, while the last 3 1/2 days of the week may be perceived in terms of the light and warm portion of the week.

Looking at the heavenly bodies and their coming into existence from that point of view I am able to perceive the ultimate beginnings of the heavenly bodies, that is, the planning stage and the more abstract or obscure beginnings of those heavenly bodies, may be perceived as having begun at the very beginning of Day One of the creation week.

Looking at things in that light I am reminded of Yeshua's words "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..." The corresponding Hebrew words, to me, can also be understood as saying, and I'll paraphrase for clarity, "no man can perceive the origins of things, except, that is, by means of perceiving the visible consequences."

Furthermore, and thinking along these same lines of thought, the heavenly bodies are then of a nature such as to point out to us in terms of a reliable clockwork, the visible markers of time even since the very beginning of time. They are not controlling or ruling specific times within God's timetable, but they are there as reliable trackers of time along the path of time since those first seven days of creation.

But notice too, that looking at things from that perspective, the seven day unit cannot and should not be perceived, as has been suggested, even by none less than Immanuel Velikovsky, in terms of one fourth of a month. No, the seven day unit, the week, is a unit of time all on its own footing, that is, a most definite object of time tied to the Creator of the Universe Himself. I do not see then any reason for subjecting the regular seven day cycle, known to us as the week, as a thing that should be in any way tied to, ruled by, or subjected unto, the beginning of the Scriptural month. Had that not been so, that is, had the original Hebrew name now associated with 'the week' been a name pointing to one quarter of the lunar cycle, yes, then it would be only natural for the weekly cycle to be reset with the beginnings of each New Moon crescent, wouldn't it?!!



Further, what comes into my mind at this point is that which is being called 'septa-circadian rhythms' as recently being discovered and reported in science. That is, the fact that regardless of any biological rhythms tied to the lunar cycle there is also being discovered biological rhythms tied to no known astronomical body, but tied only to the cycle of seven days itself...

At that point I am reminded that the crowning event of the first three days of creation week was and is life itself, that is, as recorded in Genesis 1:11-12. Paralleling that event I find at the end of the Sixth Day the creation of man as the Sons and Daughters of Elohim and as the crowning event of God's own first work week. Adding the missing 1/2 days to that line of though, I perceive, first, during the dark portion of Day Four a portion of time committed to the final planning and preparation for things on yet another, an even higher, order of existence, that is, all of that which was subsequently created during days Four through Seven. Second, I perceive the Seventh-day Sabbath very much in terms of 'a sevening' or 'a cleansing' event, an event intimately tied to the word 'remember,' as in the Fourth Commandment: "Remember the seventh day..."

It occurs to me also as interesting that the Fourth Commandment is numbered in such a way as to harmonize with, and as to remind me of, that first dark and cool portion of Day Four of creation, that is, the last 1/7th of the first 3 1/2 days...


Well, having thought things through in this fashion, as you can see, I am not finding anything in support of a lunar driven, or lunar controlled, Sabbath. And, once again, I wish to remind you that this line of thought of mine was initiated upon that one item within your website, which I found being the only possible basis for considering at all a lunar driven Seventh-day Sabbath.


Now, if you see something more than that, something other than what I am perceiving, as a clear and definite basis for observing and keeping a lunar controlled Seventh-day Sabbath, I for one would certainly look forwards to knowing about it such that I too can receive any potential special blessing of God as are being available only by such lunar driven Sabbath observance!









/Continued in my post below...

Tree of Life ©

/Continued from my post above...







Third, one pointed question re a peculiar item within your website...

Although this particular item may appear to me as being a clear and distinctive error within your website presentation, I do recognize that said error could as well be in the eyes of the beholder, me, and I would like to address this issue to you rather in terms of a question such as gives you an opportunity to explain to me what I cannot make any sense of:

This peculiar item of yours, so far as I am aware, is unique to your presentation of lunar driven Sabbaths, that is, in contradistinction to that which I have perceived as being presented by other proponents of a lunar driven Sabbath (cf. e.g. 4angelspublications.com/pdf/God's_Original_Calendar.pdf,) your presentation of the numbering of the days of the months are delayed by one day while skipping the New Moon day. By so doing any given day of the month as numbered by you would be, in the other calendars reckoned as numbered by you plus one, that is, whereas you'd number a certain day as the 7th day of the month, others would be calling the same day the 8th day of the month (provided of course that the two of you agree upon which day the New Moon crescent was first visible.)

It seems to me that by so doing you are creating an impossibility and a contradiction re a very interesting passage from 1 Samuel 20 that you are giving a prominent place within your website, thereby apparently, as I see it, also contradicting yourself within your own website. You see, in 1 Samuel 20:5 David is referencing the day following as "the new moon." Per your website that same day would correspond to one of two days, either the day when the New Moon crescent was expected to be first seen, or else it would be a reference to the morrow following immediately upon the evening when the New Moon crescent was first seen. That is, per your website that "to morrow" of David's would be either the last day of the old month, or else it would be the "neutral" unnumbered day of your reckoning. Per your reckoning it would most definitely not be either the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd day of the month, or is that not so?

Now, it seems quite clear from the context that verses 24-26 are recording the events from the actual day that had before been referenced by David and Jonathan as "to morrow," does it not?

But notice the very next day following, that is, per verse 27 (as also referenced in verse 34,) is being reckoned as "the second day of the month." That is, per your reckoning, it would appear as though the day following immediately upon the unnumbered "neutral" day would in this passage be specified as "the second day of the month," would it not? In other words, per your way of reckoning the days of the months, there would be no first day of the month at all within the month being referenced in 1 Samuel chapter 20. Please tell me how this can be and how it is that my way of perceiving this is in error!





Fourthly, yet another question...

On your page tabbed 'Sabbath Calculation' you are eight times referencing "the masses" in contradistinction to "the straight gate" and "the narrow way."

Now, surely this characteristic alone, that is, being a tiny minority, cannot be a sufficient characteristic all by itself for determining who is right and who is wrong, can it? For certainly you too are well aware, are you not?, that the minute minorities are more numerous than you can count and where such minorities differ among themselves, only such groups as agree upon the truth re said specific are being correct re that particular?





I remain looking forwards to your feedback to these pair of posts of mine.



Shabbat Shalom,


Tree of Life (c)