Lunar sabbath - Christian Discussion Forums

tall73 · 06-15-2009

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

...William Miller calculated 22 October 1844 on the basis of a Lunar calendar...
...that also calculated 'weekly' Sabbaths by reference to the New Moon...
...so this is a subject at the very heart of Adventist origin and identity.

tall73 · 06-15-2009

I may have it totally confused, but if I understand correctly the Jewish months can have 29 or 30 days. Is that also the case with the Karaite calendar?

If so then wouldn't that result in there being more than 6 days between the last sabbath of a month and the first sabbath of the next month?

How does that then match the commandment?

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I may have it totally confused, but if I understand correctly the Jewish months can have 29 or 30 days. Is that also the case with the Karaite calendar?

If so then wouldn't that result in there being more than 6 days between the last sabbath of a month and the first sabbath of the next month?

How does that then match the commandment?

We live with a Gregorian calendar so assume the days must follow a continuous seven day cycle...
...but there is no conflict with the commandment...
...with six days of work and seventh a Sabbath...
...if the weekly cycle starts anew each New Moon...
...the occassional extra day is just that 'an extra day'...
...then the New Moon is sighted and the cycle begins again.

tall73 · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

We live with a Gregorian calendar so assume the days must follow a continuous seven day cycle...
...but there is no conflict with the commandment...
...with six days of work and seventh a Sabbath...
...if the weekly cycle starts anew each New Moon...
...the occassional extra day is just that 'an extra day'...
...then the New Moon is sighted and the cycle begins again.

I did find interesting the notion that the new moon is itself a day of worship and therefore would not be considered one of the 6 work days.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I did find interesting the notion that the new moon is itself a day of worship and therefore would not be considered one of the 6 work days.

It is also interesting that a New Moon day was never a Sabbath...
...because it is never a seventh day...
...and this can only happen in a Lunar calendar...
...because a New Moon day would float though the days on the Julian/Gregorian...
...so would occasionally coincide with a 'seventh day'.

Also, no Sabbath that is given a specific 'day of the month' reference in the OT...
...ever falls on any day other than day 8, 15, 22, 29.

BrianL · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is also interesting that a New Moon day was never a Sabbath...
...because it is never a seventh day...
...and this can only happen in a Lunar calendar...
...because a New Moon day would float though the days on the Julian/Gregorian...
...so would occasionally coincide with a 'seventh day'.

Also, no Sabbath that is given a specific 'day of the month' reference in the OT...
...ever falls on any day other than day 8, 15, 22, 29.

What about "days" that aren't sabbaths that fall on 8, 15, 22, or 29?

Est 9:15-19 NASB The Jews who were in Susa assembled also on the fourteenth day of the month Adar and killed three hundred men in Susa, but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (16) Now the rest of the Jews who were in the king's provinces assembled, to defend their lives and rid themselves of their enemies, and kill 75,000 of those who hated them; but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (17) This was done on the thirteenth day of the month Adar, and on the fourteenth day they rested and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (18) But the Jews who were in Susa assembled on the thirteenth and the fourteenth of the same month, and they rested on the fifteenth day and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (19) Therefore the Jews of the rural areas, who live in the rural towns, make the fourteenth day of the month Adar a holiday for rejoicing and feasting and sending portions of food to one another.

In Christ,
Brian

Tree of Life © · 11-21-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL

What about "days" that aren't sabbaths that fall on 8, 15, 22, or 29?

Est 9:15-19 NASB The Jews who were in Susa assembled also on the fourteenth day of the month Adar and killed three hundred men in Susa, but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (16) Now the rest of the Jews who were in the king's provinces assembled, to defend their lives and rid themselves of their enemies, and kill 75,000 of those who hated them; but they did not lay their hands on the plunder. (17) This was done on the thirteenth day of the month Adar, and on the fourteenth day they rested and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (18) But the Jews who were in Susa assembled on the thirteenth and the fourteenth of the same month, and they rested on the fifteenth day and made it a day of feasting and rejoicing. (19) Therefore the Jews of the rural areas, who live in the rural towns, make the fourteenth day of the month Adar a holiday for rejoicing and feasting and sending portions of food to one another.

In Christ,
Brian

Yes Brian,

I agree with your question, but what makes you certain that either “the fourteenth day” or “the fifteenth day” as quoted by you from Ester 9:17 and 18 was or was not a regular weekly Sabbath to begin with? I have a hard time making a strong case against either the 14th or the 15th being a Sabbath to begin with based on nothing but that passage. I’d be interested in hearing why specifically you question, based upon your quoted passage, that the 15th of that month wasn’t a Sabbath.

On the other hand, I believe I have found additional passages in the OT in support of your contention re “ "days" that aren't sabbaths that fall on 8, 15, 22, or 29...” Perhaps most of the readers of this thread will not be motivated enough to study deeply enough into my grounds for this in order to firmly convince themselves, but I believe there is good evidence to be found in the following passages:

1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra 7:9 KJV

For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Now, I recognize that some of those that are in favor of the Lunar Sabbath may not recognize the first day of the month as a Sabbath, but for those that do: How likely is it that Ezra, the priest, and his followers would commence a long journey on a Sabbath?

2.
Perhaps some of the following verses will make for some Berean like Bible students a stronger second argument?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra 10:8-9 KJV

8 And that whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away.
9 Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem within three days. It was the ninth month, on the twentieth day of the month; and all the people sat in the street of the house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.

It is easy to show (Please PM or email me for a link to my study!) for certain that in the year “Kislev 20, 397 BCE fell on the day beginning at sunset Sun Dec 3 or Mon Dec 4 (Julian Day 1576757,) 397 BCE. – Notice: The whole sale divorce action of Ezra occurred on Aviv 1, 396 BCE.”

Without being willing to pursue a deeper study of these things it may be hard for some to accept without more that the words “within three days,” as quoted above, pertain not necessarily to a duration of three days, but definitely to the Third Day of the week. However, for those willing to accept that – After all wouldn’t it be quite confusing for a Hebrew speaking person to ever use such consecutive reckoning in view of the fact of such reckoning being easily mixed up with the only Hebrew names existing for the days of the week? – we find in these verses a powerful tool for identifying not only the exact year (397 B.C.) but also the correct king (Artaxerxes II,) corresponding to the events recorded in the above quoted passage from Ezra 10:8-9. (Re Artaxerxes II, please cf. SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 3, pp. 369-374.)

For the main argument of this thread this argument translates to Kislev 20 (i.e. the 20th day of the 9th month) being a Tuesday (beginning at sunset Monday night.) It follows that in that particular month and year Sabbath fell out on Kislev 3, 10, 17, and 24, - as reckoned by Ezra - and not as suggested by the proponents of Lunar Sabbath keeping.

3.
Here’s a third argument taken from the Book of Daniel. But again, this one requires a Berean type Bible student with a real interest in chronology:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel 10:4 KJV

And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;

This argument is building upon, among other things, the obvious fact that the time references in Daniel 10 are closely associated in time with Passover, which is a time of fasting, i.e. of eating nothing that is leavened. This fact brings in the consideration as to why the 24th day of that month is a day chosen for the events recorded in Daniel 10, or doesn’t it? To me at least it seems very much in line with what the Bible teaches re Sabbath keeping and the blessings thereof, to consider the possibility that this particular day, Abib 24, was a Sabbath and kept as such by Daniel. In fact, to me this is added confirmation, albeit by no means the sole support, for the Aviv 24 of Daniel 10 being exactly datable (Please PM or email me for a link to my study!) to the year 531 B.C.

4.
Brian, this one is especially for you: I’ve shown (Please PM or email me for a link to my study!) that the original Purim event as recorded in Esther 9:15-19 did in fact occur in the year 473 B.C. – again this may require an ardent Berean Bible student... That given, it is not hard to determine which days of the week that correspond to Adar 14 and Adar 15 of that year: If you go first to NASA’s Phases of the Moon Table you’ll find that the astronomical new moon almost certainly corresponding to the 12th month of Esther 9 is given as “Feb 21 19:16.” To get Jerusalem time you’ll add 2hrs 21min or to get Iranian time you’ll add 3hrs. It follows that the visible new moon from that horizon occurred either Feb 22 or Feb 23 and that Adar 1 is reckoned from either Feb 23 or 24 beginning at sunset on the prior day. Using a reliable Julian Day and Civil Date Calculator it is then easy to find the correct day of the week for those dates. I find that Feb 23 and 24, 473 B.C. correspond to Saturday and Sunday respectively, and that Adar 14 and 15, 473 B.C. correspond to Friday and Saturday or else Saturday and Sunday, respectively, i.e. while beginning at sunset on the preceding day and depending upon which day the new moon crescent was first observed from that horizon. Thus, as you can see for yourself, it is entirely possible, albeit not certain, that Adar 15 of Esther 9 did in fact turn out on a regular weekly Sabbath in that year. The 15th was either the 7th or the 1st Day of the week. I would lean towards the First Day of the week, but not heavily so. . . based upon NASA’s Phases of the Moon Tables and the late night astronomical new moon from that horizon (between 9:37 PM and 10:16 PM.)

In summary

Based on the above referenced I find good evidence not to subscribe to the Lunar Sabbath argument... Wait for more... much of which may turn out to be much more easily digested by most readers of this thread!

Furthermore, subscribing to the Lunar Sabbath argument destroys any possibility for correlating weekdays and dates of the month for purposes of helping exactly determine the dates as recorded in the Old and New Testament. I’ve found said tool to be an extremely reliable, useful and powerful tool indeed for thus dating a host of events in the Holy Scriptures.

Peace to all of our homes and families,

Tree of Life ©

Tree of Life © · 11-21-2009

Was Kislev 24 of Daniel 10 a Sabbath? I find reasons for that being true...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It is also interesting…

Also, no Sabbath that is given a specific 'day of the month' reference in the OT...
...ever falls on any day other than day 8, 15, 22, 29.

Maybe, maybe not, Troubleshooter,

You may wish to be a true Berean while considering carefully my prior post in response to Brian’s post . . .

Especially re Daniel 10!

Shalom,

Tree of Life ©

**Troubleshooter** · 11-23-2009

Hi Tree Of Life, I ran a thread on this subject at the following address...

The Adventist Sabbath Paradox
http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=174603

If you think there is something I have not covered...
...I would be delighted to consider it.

Sophia7 · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

There's some interesting material at this site, including some stuff from the Grace Amadon Collection. Apparently the site was created by a couple of Adventists who switched to the lunar-Sabbath model.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

There's some interesting material at this site, including some stuff from the Grace Amadon Collection. Apparently the site was created by a couple of Adventists who switched to the lunar-Sabbath model.

Only a person who does not know the Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar Calendar.

Once you realize that the Lunar Calendar was initiated as part of the Exodus...
...it is easy to see that it was just a temporal part of the ceremonial system...
...built on the Passover/Exodus...
...that was prophetic of Jesus death and Resurrection...
...and came to an end with all the other feast, sacrifices.

This is why Paul could say to the Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

By continuing the monthly cycles they were denying their fulfillment in the Gospel.

Sophia7 · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Only a person who does not know the Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar Calendar.

Once you realize that the Lunar Calendar was initiated as part of the Exodus...
...it is easy to see that it was just a temporal part of the ceremonial system...
...built on the Passover/Exodus...
...that was prophetic of Jesus death and Resurrection...
...and came to an end with all the other feast, sacrifices.

This is why Paul could say to the Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

By continuing the monthly cycles they were denying their fulfillment in the Gospel.

Well, I don't agree with them; I just find the site interesting in terms of the ramifications for Adventism.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophia7

Well, I don't agree with them; I just find the site interesting in terms of the ramifications for Adventism.

I find the site interesting too for the same reasons...
...I am just concerned for those 'weak in faith' who might consider a Lunar Sabbath necessary...
...I am workng on understanding the Lunar calendar in relation to Passover/Exodus/Sinai...
...and the role it plays in prefiguring the Gospel.

peg · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Only a person who does not know the Gospel would consider switching to a Lunar Calendar.

Of course you are right, Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead of worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is supposedly the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in the 7-day cycle that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that makes all the difference!

If, in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's "rest day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who choose to worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to exist.

That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel of Salvation is what We Formers have said all along,
But it is not what SDAs have strenuously argued.

Pegg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Once you realize that the Lunar Calendar was initiated as part of the Exodus...
...it is easy to see that it was just a temporal part of the ceremonial system...
...built on the Passover/Exodus...
...that was prophetic of Jesus death and Resurrection...
...and came to an end with all the other feast, sacrifices.

This is why Paul could say to the Galatians...
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." Galatians 4:9-11

By continuing the monthly cycles they were denying their fulfillment in the Gospel.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Of course you are right, Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead of worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is supposedly the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in the 7-day cycle that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that makes all the difference!

If, in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's "rest day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who choose to worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to exist.

That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel of Salvation is what We Formers have said all along,
But it is not what SDAs have strenuously argued.

What I am discovering Pegg is that...
...while the current Sabbath in Adventism is about law...
...the Lunar Sabbath is calculated with reference to the Passover...
...so is itself an illustration of the Gospel...
...as was the entire paraphernalia of the Sanctuary system...
...that has met its fulfillment in the death and resurrection of Christ.

My concern is that current Sabbatarians would see a need to switch...
...as those at 4 Angels Publications have done...
...rather than see the Gospel in it.

Every Lunar Sabbath discussion I have read has seen a need to 'keep' or 'observe' the Sabbath...
...according to the Lunar calculations as the 'true' alternative to a Saturday/Sabbath or Sunday observance...
...not one has seen the Gospel in it...
...but the Lunar calendar is as much a prophetic illustration of Jesus death and resurrection...
...as is the slaughter of a lamb or a priest applying blood to the mercy seat.

BrianL · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by peg

Of course you are right, Trouble...

But, the WHOLE REASON SDA keeps Saturday instead of worshiping every 7th day on Sunday
Is because Saturday is supposedly the "True Sabbath".
It is supposedly the same day in the 7-day cycle that God rested,
And, according to SDA, that makes all the difference!

If, in fact, the day they are worshiping on bears no relation to God's "rest day",
They have no reason to look down on those of us who choose to worship on Sunday...
...And no reason to exist.

That this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel of Salvation is what We Formers have said all along,
But it is not what SDAs have strenuously argued.

Pegg

Rasell came real close to admitting that they can't, IN FACT, know they are worshiping on the "True Sabbath" here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasell

The changes in the Calendar never altered the weekly cycle, there is no record of that being changed. In any case when the Manna was given, and none on the Sabbath the people had 40 years of Sabbath keeping and the Jews have kept that cycle unbroken until today.

In Christ,
Brian

JDP · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

In reading Troubleshooters comments on the lunar timing of the Sabbath, I thought back to the creation week and the timing of the events discussed from time to time.

I made a document to record some brainstorming questions that popped into my head at the time. All this isn’t to prove anything as it seems irrelevant to a New Covenant believer’s choice of worship times. It is to see if there were any unasked questions and to further examine the binding nature of the claims of Sabbatarian’s. It does add a new (for me) dimension to the references about observing the new moons and Sabbaths like in Isaiah 66:23 and Colossians 2:16.

Is Saturday, as the seventh day of our week, the actual, sequential inheritance of the original 7th day of creation?

Does it matter if it is or isn’t?

What “phase” was the moon in when it was created on the 4th day?

Was it a new moon or a full moon? Was it in some other phase?

Quote:

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the months?

How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the Sabbath?

From the reading I’ve found, it seems that one view is to have been from the first day after observing the first crescent of the new moon. Are there other proposed observatory sources? How would you determine the validity of the different methods?

How would they jive with the creation of the moon on the fourth day and the ‘God’s rest’ on the 7th day?

If one is to observe a lunar Sabbath, what location is used for observation of the determining lunar signal? The person’s location? The land of Israel?

Does this lunar signal in the land of Israel sync in days with the equivalent lunar signal at other latitudes giving allowance for longitudinal time differences? Would people be observing the same day?

EG. Will the lunar signal at the Israeli latitude occur the same day as the lunar signal in northern Sweden or South Africa?

Will the lunar signal occur the same day in Sweden and South Africa?

Does the moon rise and set even in the winter arctic darkness or the continuous light of the summer arctic?

Were any of the potential differences in observed lunar times at different latitudes in existence from the beginning or were they "created" at a later date? EG. the tilt of the earth and the accompanying effects?

Some if not all of these questions might be too off the wall for rational discussion but they might trigger some others that will be beneficial.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-15-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDP

[INDENT][INDENT]
In reading Troubleshooters comments on the lunar timing of the Sabbath, I thought back to the creation week and the timing of the events discussed from time to time.

I made a document to record some brainstorming questions that popped into my head at the time. All this isn’t to prove anything as it seems irrelevant to a New Covenant believer’s choice of worship times. It is to see if there were any unasked questions and to further examine the binding nature of the claims of Sabbatarian’s. It does add a new (for me) dimension to the references about observing the new moons and Sabbaths like in Isaiah 66:23 and Colossians 2:16.

Quote:

[*]Is Saturday, as the seventh day of our week, the actual, sequential inheritance of the original 7th day of creation?

Unlikely and impossible to prove.

Quote:

[*]Does it matter if it is or isn’t?

No

Quote:

[*]What “phase” was the moon in when it was created on the 4th day?
[*]Was it a new moon or a full moon? Was it in some other phase?

Bible doesn't say.

Quote:

[*]How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the months?

Year started with the first New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...this was the timing of the first Passover...
...and by doing this annually the Lunar Cycle was brought back into sync each Solar year.

Quote:

[*]How did the Israelite's of the Old Testament determine the Sabbath?
[*]From the reading I’ve found, it seems that one view is to have been from the first day after observing the first crescent of the new moon. Are there other proposed observatory sources? How would you determine the validity of the different methods?

That is the pattern as I read it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus six days...
...and then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath until the end of the month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon and repeated each month.

Quote:

[*]How would they jive with the creation of the moon on the fourth day and the ‘God’s rest’ on the 7th day?

Six days God worked and then a rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law that was fulfilled in the New Creation...
...that began with Jesus resurrection...
...that's why Jesus died on a preparation day and rested on the Sabbath...
...the pattern of creation week is embedded into Israel's times...
...and the New Creation began.

Quote:

[*]If one is to observe a lunar Sabbath, what location is used for observation of the determining lunar signal? The person’s location? The land of Israel?

[*]Does this lunar signal in the land of Israel sync in days with the equivalent lunar signal at other latitudes giving allowance for longitudinal time differences? Would people be observing the same day?

[*]EG. Will the lunar signal at the Israeli latitude occur the same day as the lunar signal in northern Sweden or South Africa?

[*]Will the lunar signal occur the same day in Sweden and South Africa?

[*]Does the moon rise and set even in the winter arctic darkness or the continuous light of the summer arctic?

[*]Were any of the potential differences in observed lunar times at different latitudes in existence from the beginning or were they "created" at a later date? EG. the tilt of the earth and the accompanying effects?

[*]Some if not all of these questions might be too off the wall for rational discussion but they might trigger some others that will be beneficial.

None of this needs contemplation...
...it worked in a local setting in and around Israel...
...and does not need to be considered globally now...
...because the purpose of it...like sacrifices...has met its fulfillment.

JDP · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Unlikely and impossible to prove.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

No

No matter because the old covenant has passed away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Bible doesn't say.

It would be wrong to assume a starting point not stated in scripture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Year started with the first New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...this was the timing of the first Passover...
...and by doing this annually the Lunar Cycle was brought back into sync each Solar year.

Even the 7th day observed today is not in sync with the barley harvest?

Even the Jew's do not observe based on the barley harvest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

That is the pattern as I read it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus six days...
...and then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath until the end of the month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon and repeated each month.

The beginning point is continuously reset??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Six days God worked and then a rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law that was fulfilled in the New Creation...
...that began with Jesus resurrection...
...that's why Jesus died on a preparation day and rested on the Sabbath...
...the pattern of creation week is embedded into Israel's times...
...and the New Creation began.

Hence the reference to SHADOWS like in Colossians!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

None of this needs contemplation...
...it worked in a local setting in and around Israel...
...and does not need to be considered globally now...
...because the purpose of it...like sacrifices...has met its fulfillment.

Only mentioned because of the 'Sabbath on a round world' discussions we have seen on here in the past.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-16-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Year started with the first New Moon following the Barley Harvest...
...this was the timing of the first Passover...
...and by doing this annually the Lunar Cycle was brought back into sync each Solar year.

Quote:

Even the 7th day observed today is not in sync with the barley harvest?

Even the Jew's do not observe based on the barley harvest?

Right, Rabbinic Jews developed a standardized calendar system like the Julian/Gregorian...
...that has a seven day weekly cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
That is the pattern as I read it...
...the first day after the New Moon plus six days...
...and then a succession of six days plus a Sabbath until the end of the month...
...days 8, 15, 22, 29...New Moon and repeated each month.

Quote:

The beginning point is continuously reset??

That's right, the succession of months begin again each year...
...and the succession of Sabbaths begin again with each New Moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Six days God worked and then a rest...
...is the pattern embedded in the law that was fulfilled in the New Creation...
...that began with Jesus resurrection...
...that's why Jesus died on a preparation day and rested on the Sabbath...
...the pattern of creation week is embedded into Israel's times...
...and the New Creation began.

Quote:

Hence the reference to SHADOWS like in Colossians!!!!

Yes!...they are a shadow of things that were to come.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Colossians 2:16-17

Christ was the reality of the annual feasts, New Moon/Sabbaths.

LastBattleCry · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

www lunarsabbath .info

The most complete, and free literature site I know of.

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

This is all new to me but I did do some math on what is believed to be the first three months subsequent to the Exodus of Egypt and here are my figures,

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12,1

God said this to Moses while the Children were still in Eqypt. If you have a Strong's please look up the Hebrew word for "month", it's H2320 (Chodesh) which the only meaning is "New Moon" or by implication a month or monthly "new moon".

Now it starts to get interesting.

"And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33, 1-3

Now, counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventhLev 23, 1-8

Here is the simple math,

New Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13, Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath Day)

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

Here is what the Bible says about the setting of "time".

The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies. He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. Ps 104,18

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

We know that the New Moon day is not counted as being one of or part of the 6 working days because of Eze 46, 1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon. That's two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar.

I won't bore you with the 3rd detailed month however from my reading it is as exact as the last two. Is there ever three months in a row in the Gregorian Calendar where the Sabbath falls on the exact same days? Of course not, because the Gregorian is a solar Calendar and does not count or start from the New Moon.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

This is all new to me but I did do some math on what is believed to be the first three months subsequent to the Exodus of Egypt and here are my figures,

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Exodus 12,1

God said this to Moses while the Children were still in Eqypt. If you have a Strong's please look up the Hebrew word for "month", it's H2320 (Chodesh) which the only meaning is "New Moon" or by implication a month or monthly "new moon".

Now it starts to get interesting.

"And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. Numbers 33, 1-3

Now, counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.

Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventhLev 23, 1-8

Here is the simple math,

New Moon Day (1), Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8, Day 9, Day 10, Day 11, Day 12, Day 13, Day 14 (Passover), Day 15 (Sabbath Day)

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

Here is what the Bible says about the setting of "time".

The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies. He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down. Ps 104,18

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

We know that the New Moon day is not counted as being one of or part of the 6 working days because of Eze 46, 1

Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children. If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon. That's two months wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar.

I won't bore you with the 3rd detailed month however from my reading it is as exact as the last two. Is there ever three months in a row in the Gregorian Calendar where the Sabbath falls on the exact same days? Of course not, because the Gregorian is a solar Calendar and does not count or start from the New Moon.

Excellent summary.

If this pattern is then extended through to Passion week...
...Jesus could have been crucified in any year Pontius Pilate was Roman procurator of Judea 26 AD through 36 AD.

This is the reasoning William Miller used to establish the crucifixion in 31 AD...
...so that the 2300 day/years terminated 22 October 1844...
...his calculations depended on the lunar Sabbath...
...but strangely SDA's later adopted a weekly Sabbath dependant on the solar Gregorian calendar...
...and then condemn the RC's for changing the day...sad eh?

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Excellent summary.

If this pattern is then extended through to Passion week...
...Jesus could have been crucified in any year Pontius Pilate was Roman procurator of Judea 26 AD through 36 AD.

This is the reasoning William Miller used to establish the crucifixion in 31 AD...
...so that the 2300 day/years terminated 22 October 1844...
...his calculations depended on the lunar Sabbath...
...but strangely SDA's later adopted a weekly Sabbath dependant on the solar Gregorian calendar...
...and then condemn the RC's for changing the day...sad eh?

I just checked the math again and I'm certain that the first three months of the Exodus all had the Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd part to me is that the New Moon day does not count as one of the six working days but that is how the math stacks up.

It adds a whole new meaning to the Sabbath day being caused or brought about by the elements,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Of course being Catholic I firmly believe God junked the majority of the Old Covenant signs when He completed them. I would be that this would cause a big mess with SDA theology given there is clear BIblical proof that they are not keeping the same Sabbath and God delivered to Moses. I want to thank animal or whoever it was that brought this up. Never even thought of it previously.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I just checked the math again and I'm certain that the first three months of the Exodus all had the Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd part to me is that the New Moon day does not count as one of the six working days but that is how the math stacks up.

It adds a whole new meaning to the Sabbath day being caused or brought about by the elements,

Of course being Catholic I firmly believe God junked the majority of the Old Covenant signs when He completed them. I would be that this would cause a big mess with SDA theology given there is clear BIblical proof that they are not keeping the same Sabbath and God delivered to Moses. I want to thank animal or whoever it was that brought this up. Never even thought of it previously.

I came across it while studying why Adventists prefer 31 AD for the crucifixion.

tall73 · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

I just checked the math again and I'm certain that the first three months of the Exodus all had the Sabbath day showing up on identical days. The odd part to me is that the New Moon day does not count as one of the six working days but that is how the math stacks up.

Except there was no sabbath given until after the 15th day of the second month where the sabbath was first given to Israel in Ex. 16.

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

Except there was no sabbath given until after the 15th day of the second month where the sabbath was first given to Israel in Ex. 16.

Agreed, I counted backwards 7 days from the 15th of the month to determine where they would have fallen. I'm certain counting forward from the 15th pinpoints the subsequent Sabbaths within the Lunar month.

tall73 · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Agreed, I counted backwards 7 days from the 15th of the month to determine where they would have fallen. I'm certain counting forward from the 15th pinpoints the subsequent Sabbaths within the Lunar month.

Yes, it might. What would be helpful is pinpointing the specific dates of sabbaths in three consecuitive months where the dates are actually given and it is made clear it is a sabbath. But I am not sure if any text or series of texts gives the dates for that many consecutive sabbaths.

The closest thing to that would be simply to show that any specific date mentioned for a sabbath fits into one of those of the lunar sabbaths--which I have seen that claim made.

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

Yes, it might. What would be helpful is pinpointing the specific dates of sabbaths in three consecuitive months where the dates are actually given and it is made clear it is a sabbath. But I am not sure if any text or series of texts gives the dates for that many consecutive sabbaths.

The closest thing to that would be simply to show that any specific date mentioned for a sabbath fits into one of those of the lunar sabbaths--which I have seen that claim made.

Unless God selected a Sabbath out of the thin air, counting back from the 15th demonstrates where they would have fallen within the month and obviously counting forward established where the following Sabbaths would be. The Sabbaths starting from the manna certainly align throughout that month and they show up in the third month. One thing is certain, SDA's and other Sabbath related denominations hype that the Sabbath existed since the garden of Eden - and specifically for SDA's troubleshooter's point appears to be right on the money in that 1844 stands on the lunar Sabbath. If they reject the Lunar Sabbath 1844 falls flat on it's face and if they keep 1844 they indeed appear to be worshipping on the wrong day.

Do you reject that the Lunar Calendar was what was used?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Jewish Ency, page 410

1. Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh) both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally WAS, dependent on the lunar cycle

tall73 · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Unless God selected a Sabbath out of the thin air, counting back from the 15th demonstrates where they would have fallen within the month and obviously counting forward established where the following Sabbaths would be. The Sabbaths starting from the manna certainly align throughout that month and they show up in the third month. One thing is certain, SDA's and other Sabbath related denominations hype that the Sabbath existed since the garden of Eden - and specifically for SDA's troubleshooter's point appears to be right on the money in that 1844 stands on the lunar Sabbath. If they reject the Lunar Sabbath 1844 falls flat on it's face and if they keep 1844 they indeed appear to be worshipping on the wrong day.

Do you reject that the Lunar Calendar was what was used?

First things first. Where is the quote indicating the date of the sabbath in the third month? I am not aware of one. Maybe there is one.

**Troubleshooter** · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

First things first. Where is the quote indicating the date of the sabbath in the third month? I am not aware of one. Maybe there is one.

See article 'Biblical Proof for the Lunar Sabbath'

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/BiblicalProofLUNARSabbath.pdf

tall73 · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

See article 'Biblical Proof for the Lunar Sabbath'

http://www.4angelspublications.com/pdf/BiblicalProofLUNARSabbath.pdf

I was just reading something similar.

But are you saying the article contains a reference to a specific sabbath date in the third month of that same year?

**Troubleshooter** · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

I was just reading something similar.

But are you saying the article contains a reference to a specific sabbath date in the third month of that same year?

The following article certainly does...
'Three Months in a Row - The Exodus, the Manna & the Mountain' - Kerrie L. French

http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/pdfs/ThreeMonthsInARow_Exodus-Manna-Mountain.pdf

I can't endorse all of it but makes a case for the pattern three months in a row.

The following link lists four months in a row.
http://lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page6.html

I am still working through these issues to verify their claims...
...it is certainly very interesting.

Tree of Life © · 11-23-2009

Re the “Pentecost… 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath” Argument

- that is being Used in Support of the Lunar Sabbath Argument

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

The following article certainly does...
'Three Months in a Row - The Exodus, the Manna & the Mountain' - Kerrie L. French

thecreatorscalendar.com/pdfs/ThreeMonthsInARow_Exodus-Manna-Mountain.pdf

I can't endorse all of it but makes a case for the pattern three months in a row.

The following link lists four months in a row.
lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page6.html

I am still working through these issues to verify their claims...
...it is certainly very interesting.

Dear Troubleshooter,

Thanks for your interesting and valuable references! Perhaps the following will add value to your pursuit of “working through these issues to verify their claims...?”

Some things, that, upon superficial consideration, may seem obviously true, may turn out to be, upon more careful consideration, obviously false…

Consider the claims of the author of lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html. He is making a number of claims that upon superficial consideration, may seem obviously true, is he not?

Yet, are those claims valid? Consider carefully these questions:

1. What’s the typical speed of an average sail boat - if not somewhere between 3-10 knots depending on the make and on the winds etc.?

2. How many hours per 24 hour day is a sail boat upon the open sea traveling while on a long journey from one place to another – if not 24 hours?

3. How far is a ship traveling per day per the above – if not 83-276 miles?

4. How fast does a ship have to travel in order to gain 125 miles/day – if not 4.5 knots?

5. Isn’t it true that a most typical speed for an average sailing ship sailing in favorable winds is 4.5 knots or better?

6. Doesn’t the above kill any strength within this part of said author’s argument?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

We can actually show, after narrowing things down, that with the traditional Pentecost count, Paul only had 8 travel days in which to travel 1000 mi., which would be an average of 125 mi. per day . . .

This kills the traditional Pentecost theory . . .

7. Consider carefully Acts 20:6!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acts 20:6

Acts 20:6 KJV And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

Acts 20:6 TLT And we sailed away from Philippi after the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days [or else “within Day Five of the week”]; where we abode Day Seven [of the week, Aviv 21, 44 CE [Saturday May 9, 44 CE.]

You may not be previously aware of the Tree of Life Time © translation (modifying the KJV,) which translation/modification is based upon Textus Receptus, or upon even more original manuscripts where such are available, and also upon the very best available chronological data from astronomy and historical primary sources available, but I have found very good reasons for believing that the TLT version of the Holy Scriptures is a more correct translation than is KJV re the particulars of this quoted passage.

That given, how long did it take Paul and his party to sail from Philippi to Troas? Were they sailing for “five days” or could it be that that trip took them no more than 4 days or possibly much less, even just a day or two, to accomplish that distance?

What does this do to this portion of said author’s arguments?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

This kills the traditional Pentecost theory because they only traveled 150 mi. in five days from Philippi to Troas, and this by ship, which is an average of 30 mi. per day.

8. Consider carefully these words of said author:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

…After this, the Scripture shows about seven more examples where they were still only averaging about 30 mi. per day for the first 500 mi.
This can be verified by reading Acts 20:13 through 17 and measuring the distance between these cities with the map in the back of most Bibles and comparing the days with the mile.

Then please compare that with the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/TheApostolicChurchCouncilIn44CE.htm#Acts20v11 . . .

Acts 20:15 TLT And we sailed thence,, and came the next day [Sunday at sunset] over against Chios; and the next day [Monday at sunset] we arrived at Samos, and tarried at Trogyllium; and the next day [Tuesday at sunset] we came to Miletus.

Acts 21:1 KJV And it came to pass, that after we were gotten from them, and had launched, we came with a straight course unto Coos, and the day following unto Rhodes, and from thence unto Patara:

Acts 21:4 TLTAnd finding disciples we tarried there Day Seven [Seventh-Day Sabbath: Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. May 15/16, 44 CE] Those told Paul, through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

Dating each of these events:

1. Day One accomplishment: 200 km. Arrived “over against Chios” at the beginning of the Second Day of the week Aviv 23, 44 CE [sunset Sunday May 10, 44 CE;]

2. Day Two accomplishment: 120 km. “Arrived at Samos” at the beginning of the Third Day of the week Aviv 24, 44 CE [sunset Monday May 11, 44 CE;]

3. Day Three accomplishment: 30 km. “Came to Miletus” at the beginning of the Fourth Day of the week Aviv 25, 44 CE [sunset Tuesday May 12, 44 CE.]

4. Day Four accomplishment: 190 km. After meeting with the brethren from Ephesus at Miletus, “came… unto Rhodes” at the beginning of the Fifth Day of the week Aviv 26, 44 CE [sunset Wednesday May 13, 44 CE.]

5. Day Five accomplishment: 100 km (for starters) to Patara.

6. Day Five through Day Seven accomplishment: 720km. From Rhodes… “sailed into Syria, and landed at Tyre…” “finding disciples we tarried there Day Seven” of the week. Aviv 26-28, 44 CE [Sunset Wednesday - Saturday May 13-16, 44 CE.]

What does that do to this portion of said author’s argument . . . and to most or all of that which follows on the same web page of his?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

This gives us a scriptural precedence of how many miles they average per day by ship, which was the fastest means of travel of that day.

And more specifically, what does it do to the following claim of said author?:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page9.html

The day that they called a Chag/Pentecost… was 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath…

And, isn’t it true that this last claim is being used by said author and by others in support of all Sabbaths in four consecutive months in the OT being “Lunar Sabbaths” falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of each month?

Moshiac · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tall73

It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it.

But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it?

Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping.

As a Jew this type of stuff just makes me ill and laugh at the same time.

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

As a Jew this type of stuff just makes me ill and laugh at the same time.

Could you lend us a hand here then? As a Jew your perspective on the Universal Jewish Ency would certainly carry some weight. There were other quotes aside from the one I posted from other historical sources that said the same thing.

As I said the other day this concept is totally new to me and I could be wrong in thinking the eary Hebrews worked off a Lunar Calendar, it seems to line up from my reading but I am no expert on this matter.

Thanks for any help you can give us.

Moshiac · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by pythons

Could you lend us a hand here then? As a Jew your perspective on the Universal Jewish Ency would certainly carry some weight. There were other quotes aside from the one I posted from other historical sources that said the same thing.

As I said the other day this concept is totally new to me and I could be wrong in thinking the eary Hebrews worked off a Lunar Calendar, it seems to line up from my reading but I am no expert on this matter.

Thanks for any help you can give us.

Jewish calender is both lunar and solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the Karaites. The weekly cycle is not affected by the moon. A New moon sometimes coincides with a 7th day sabbath. The new moon however does not determine when the 7th day sabbath is. The Jewish calender was fixed by means of an algorithm formualted by Hillel the second circa 2nd century CE. Prior to this the new moon was determined by sighting of the new moon being reported to the Sanhedrin. Other factors affected for example the timing of Passover which is a spring festival. It was common for passover to be put off for a month if the Barley harvest had not actually ripened sufficiently. The Jewish calender is so unique that it repeats itself every 180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly with the solar year! The Christian calender was wrong for centuries as the names of some of the months testify Sept(7)ember, Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when we now know them now as the 9th, 10th and 12th months respectively. In this respect a year is a year when it is to be understood that both the lunar and solar aspects of the calender align themselves over a four year period. The 1260 day period in Revelation is typically divided by 360 (lunar year) to alow a correlation with half the final week of Daniel's Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one however knows that 3.5 years is just exactly what it is in terms of days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 = 1277 but not 1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

pythons · 06-29-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Jewish calender is both lunar and solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the Karaites. The weekly cycle is not affected by the moon. A New moon sometimes coincides with a 7th day sabbath. The new moon however does not determine when the 7th day sabbath is. The Jewish calender was fixed by means of an algorithm formualted by Hillel the second circa 2nd century CE. Prior to this the new moon was determined by sighting of the new moon being reported to the Sanhedrin. Other factors affected for example the timing of Passover which is a spring festival. It was common for passover to be put off for a month if the Barley harvest had not actually ripened sufficiently. The Jewish calender is so unique that it repeats itself every 180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly with the solar year! The Christian calender was wrong for centuries as the names of some of the months testify Sept(7)ember, Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when we now know them now as the 9th, 10th and 12th months respectively. In this respect a year is a year when it is to be understood that both the lunar and solar aspects of the calender align themselves over a four year period. The 1260 day period in Revelation is typically divided by 360 (lunar year) to alow a correlation with half the final week of Daniel's Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one however knows that 3.5 years is just exactly what it is in terms of days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 = 1277 but not 1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

I appreciate your posting this. It says a lot with few words so I will dig into it.

pythons · 06-30-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Jewish calender is both lunar and solar. There is some 2000 years of Jewish history prior to the Karaites. The weekly cycle is not affected by the moon.

The "weekly" cycle now is seven days, I'm not sure anyone would dispute that, nor would anyone suggest that the current cycle of perpetual weeks of 7 days is affected by the Moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

A New moon sometimes coincides with a 7th day sabbath.

Indeed it does, with the Gregorian Calendar. It does not appear to coincide with the Sabbath in a lunar month,

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2 Kings 4,23

And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, NOR sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isiah 1,13

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ps 81,3

Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob.

I'm not sure if you would accept Strong's, it renders H 3677 as "Fullness or the full moon, i.e. it's festival (time appointed).

If I'm correct, the feasts of the Passover and the Tents WERE celebrated on the 14-15th days of the first and seventh months respectively.

Another point worth mentioning is that of the Genesis debacle,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 7,11

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Minus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 8,14

And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

= 12 months AND 11 days , which is in fact the exact number required to equate a year of LUNAR months so that it equals with a solar year of 365 days. 354 (1), 355 (2), 356 (3), 357 (4), 358 (5), 359 (6), 360 (7), 361 (8), 362 (9), 363 (10) & 365 (11).

If the flood lasted a solar year why didn't Moses just say so instead of going through the work of detailing it out IN A LUNAR YEAR?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The new moon however does not determine when the 7th day sabbath is.

Agreed, "now" it certainly does not determine it. If I understand the argument correctly, it maintains the new moon previously determined when the 7 day Sabbath "was" because it was the new moon that initiated the "new month". I'm not Jewish so the best I can do is read what Jews (I'm assuming it was Jew's) wrote. Like the following which I can't confirm is real, perhaps you could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, page 410

Sabbath AND New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), BOTH periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon IS STILL and the Sabbath ORIGINALLY WAS dependent upon the LUNAR CYCLE. Originally the New Moon was celebrated IN THE SAME WAY AS THE SABBATH; gradually it became less important while the Sabbath became more and more a day of religion.....

Unless the UJE is bunk and not true it explicitly states that the Hebrew Sabbath WAS dependent on a lunar cycle. So, unless this source turns out to be a fabrication of fact you certainly are bound to agree that the Sabbath was (used to be) dependent upon the Moon. As in the Sabbath was a baby dependent on it's Mother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The Jewish calender was fixed by means of an algorithm formualted by Hillel the second circa 2nd century CE. Prior to this the new moon was determined by sighting of the new moon being reported to the Sanhedrin.

That is what the argument that animal and troubleshooter brought up wasn't it? The Gregorian Calendar adopted the Jewish Sabbath or more properly, the Sabbath was given up for adoption and founds it's place in the recurring weekly cycle of the 7 days inside the Gregorian Calendar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

Other factors affected for example the timing of Passover which is a spring festival. It was common for passover to be put off for a month if the Barley harvest had not actually ripened sufficiently. The Jewish calender is so unique that it repeats itself every 180,000 years and aligns itself perfectly with the solar year!

Do you have access to the algorithm used to do this? I couldn't find it mentioned on the net?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The Christian calender was wrong for centuries as the names of some of the months testify Sept(7)ember, Oct(8)tober, and Dec(10)ember when we now know them now as the 9th, 10th and 12th months respectively. In this respect a year is a year when it is to be understood that both the lunar and solar aspects of the calender align themselves over a four year period.

What centuries was the Christian Calendar wrong? Are you talking about the Lunar calendar used by the Church for a time or the Gregorian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshiac

The 1260 day period in Revelation is typically divided by 360 (lunar year) to alow a correlation with half the final week of Daniel's Prophecy(ch9) i.e 3.5 years. Any one however knows that 3.5 years is just exactly what it is in terms of days i.e. approximately 3.5 times 365 = 1277 but not 1260!!

I will leave you to ponder

I'm seeing a period of time that equals 3 1/2 solars years described as lunar time. Isn't that exactly what Gen did?

I appreciate you being here to answer some of these questions. I'll eventually "get it".

Your Notifications
Unread Visitor Messages	0
Unapproved Visitor Messages	0
Incoming Friend Requests	1
Unread Picture Comments	0
Picture Comments Awaiting Approval	0

06-15-2009	#1
tall73 Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,380 Reputation: 304	Lunar sabbath It was suggested in another thread that the sabbath was actually calculated on a lunar calendar. Now I have met one man in person before who advocated this view. I have seen some basic write-ups on it. But I am not sure I am convinced that was the case. Anyone want to discuss it? Obviously this would have implications for Adventist sabbath keeping. Last edited by tall73; 06-15-2009 at 05:43 AM..

11-23-2009	#10
Troubleshooter Super Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 4,580 Reputation: 579	Hi Tree Of Life, I ran a thread on this subject at the following address... The Adventist Sabbath Paradox http://forums.carm.org/v/showthread.php?t=174603 If you think there is something I have not covered... ...I would be delighted to consider it. __________________ - Jesus said, "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33 -

Quick Reply
The following errors occurred with your submission

Okay
Message: Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply. Options Quote message in reply? Posting Quick Reply - Please Wait